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Consumer Products Safty Commission Warn

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S\/\/4T-L()G4N View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S\/\/4T-L()G4N Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2004 at 2:36pm
^^^The part that is worry-some is the fact that we have never heard it before, but now it has happened twice.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surfhare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2004 at 4:24pm

SO What About Nitro Tanks??

Any safey warnings fo them??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsb285 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2004 at 10:01pm

carbon dioxide canisters

????

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Centaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2004 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by jsb285 jsb285 wrote:

carbon dioxide canisters

????

co2 = carbon dioxide

 

Anyways, if anything, this should make people be aware of the POTENTIAL risk (although low and avoidable).

Like someone already said (sorry-forgot name), it's nothing to panic over.

IMO, I think people are too complacent with these high pressured tanks and don't show them enough respect.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Centaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2004 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by firefighter3431 firefighter3431 wrote:

Originally posted by spyderjunke spyderjunke wrote:

somone said you got thorw them away after 15 years if so thats is a waste of money but if is to safe i'll spend the money

dude you could check with a co2 dealer ( welding supply ) and see if they can hydro test them .....   if they do you might get to use them from now on.... i know that steel air bottle ( holds 2216 psi. ) in the fire service can be used as long as it passes hydrostatic testing ( and it has to be done ever five years at a cost of around $20.00 a bottle)....

Hmmm...I recall reading somewhere that HPA and co2 paintball tanks have a 15 year life span regardless of whether or not it's been hydro-tested.

Anybody read this too?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Picasso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2004 at 7:26pm
The C02 tanks in question, referred to, both had anti-siphon tubes installed.

It is presumed that the anti-siphon tubes were installed by the users, or someone local (ie; not a shop).

Evidently, they didn't make sure the valve was secured back onto the tank properly.

The re-asssembled tanks were then screwed into the guns (probably very tightly) and as they unscrewed the tanks, the valve unscrewed from the tank instead of the valve unscrewing from the ASA.

Besides neglecting to use loctite, it doesn't appear they used proper torque when re-installing the valve.

With all of this said, be careful. spread the word. It may not be your tank that flies through the air, but you may standing in the path of one at your local field.
If you don't know what you are doing, have a ProShop or certified airsmith handle these installations, ones such as anti-siphon tubes.

These accidents are a reflection on Paintball, on all of us. We don't want insurance rates going up and the media reporting about how dangerous P-Ball is, and how local fields should be closed.

So, be safe, and spread the word to others to be safe.

This is very serious stuff.

Thanks to Rockslide for posting it for all to see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote firefighter3431 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2004 at 12:14pm

heres what i was talking about on webdogradio

tip of the week it tell the when to teast each and i know that the carbon fiber air tanks we use in the fire servies you do have to destory them after 15 years ... but right now they are trying to change that to if they pass hydro that we can use them as long as they keep passing hydro ...   but as far as a paintball tank i dont really know the life span of them but trying to find out



Edited by firefighter3431
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2004 at 12:31pm

Originally posted by Enos Shenk Enos Shenk wrote:

If theyre going to issue this big warning, why not warn about what CAUSES that problem, idiots working on their tank and not using loctite on the valve threads...

ditto

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbites Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2004 at 11:30pm

As a volunteer fire fighter, I also work with compressed air on a fairly regular basis. My understanding of the law is that all tanks containing compressed gasses over 2" in diameter must be regularly hydo-tested in order to be filled for a fee (no fee = no required testing, but the lawsuits would not be pretty if your old tank hurt someone). Steel (and aluminum I believe) must be tested every 5 years and to the best of my understanding may be used so long as they continue to pass hydro. Carbon-fiber tanks must be tested every 3 years, up to a maximum of 15 years. I may be a little off on some of this info (and I'm sure I'll be corrected), but that's the truth as I know it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Picasso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2004 at 9:59pm
Arbites got it right...


Steel or Aluminum Tanks:

-Under 2 inch diameter, no hydro required.

-5 year hydro testing for any that are greater than 2inhces diameter.

-No lifetime, as long as they pass hydro. There are scuba tanks out there from the 1970's still in use, legally, due to current hydro testing and inspections.

Carbon Fiber wrapped tanks (HPA):

-15 year lifespan from First Hydro/Manuf Date.
After 15 years, they get a hole drilled in them. Gone.

-All Carbon Fiber was 3 year Hydro.

However, now, the DOT has allowed some to be 5 year hydro. You have to look at the DOT number (such as DOT 10915) to see if it qualifies.

Some tanks produced after a certain Date, that meet DOT, are now 5 year hydro, if they are before that date, they still get a 3 year Hydro, the first time.

So, with HPA tanks, its a little confusing, check with the manufacturer.

Using one of my tanks as an Example:
It is a Luxfer Tank (brand).
It is "DOT 10915" which has been granted a 5 year Hydro exemption. BUT, this exemption has a Beginning DATE requirement. My tank was manufactured/first hydroed MAY 2001. This means it is too OLD to qualify for the 5 year Hydro, it must be tested Next month (May 2004). Once it is tested, then it falls into the 5 year testing requirement sey forth by the DOT exemption.


    Keep this in mind, any field or any shop can DENY filling ANY tank, regardless of Hydro date. If they think it's unsafe, they can say NO.

A lot of 20 oz. Co2 tanks hit the market about 5 years ago, when they became popular, now they are hitting their first hydro requirement date. I suspct that Feilds and Shops are going to be checking dates and condition of tanks a lot closer.

   To find the date on your Co2 tank, it is near the Neck, and is stamped into the tank. You'll see 1800 which means max working psi rating (Your burst disc will be an 1800 psi disc so that the tank never exceeds that rating).
   You will also see a set of numbers like 08 02. This means the tank was manufacture/hydroed in August (08) of 2002 (02).
It will be up for a hydro test in 08 07, which is 5 years, because it is steel or aluminum.

Also remember, if your tank is exposed to high heat for more than the allotted time it should be trashed, also if it has been dented, or otherwise mangled.

Keeping our tanks in decent shape is the owners responsibility.

I have seen tanks at fields, that look so bad I can't believe the field will even fill them.

The steel tanks, however are pretty thick and durable, but this doesn't mean we should NOT respect the amount of power they contain.

I agree with Centaur, who stated that people get complacent about Co2 and HPA tanks. I have been saying that for many years.
You are carrying and filling a potential bomb. Handle it with the care and respect it deserves.

Don't put them in a hot car or trunk.
Don't throw them.
Don't sit them out in the hot sun.
Don't overfill them.
Protect the Valve, don't drop it on the valve.
....simply don't do anything to cause the tank to over-pressurize or get damaged in anyway.

Seems like common sense stuff, but its the stuff we need to remind ourselves and everybody else.

You can be the safest player out there, but, if these accidents keep happeneing, prices will go up, and then eventually Fields will close because they can't get insrance to do fills.

Protect your sport.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Layman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2004 at 8:18pm
After reading the posts, did anyone read the follow-up report on the tanks going bad? Glenn Palmer of Palmers-Pursuit Shop inspected the tank that most recently killed a woman. Here is the thread with Glenn's report:Click the Link Originally the loc-tite clogged the safety vents.
I have also had a 20oz unscrew under pressure. My saftey holes were luckily not clogged. No anti-siphon, or any mod had been done. Be safe guys. It isn't always user negligence in the sense of an idiot making a mistake. How many times have you unscrewed a tank while talking to someone and not watched the threads?

edit- just to be clear, pay attention to what GP@PPS "Master Airsmith" writes

Edited by Layman
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Powder_pirate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2004 at 9:45pm

Forget potato cannons, tennis ball cannons, even model rocketry.  Here comes the new and exciting sport of Co2 tank launching.  Simply lower full Co2 tank into a mortar with an open breach.  Then using a wrench undo the copper thingy and there you go.  Liftoff via Co2 propulsion.

...Ok I want everyone to know that post is a joke, but then again it would be fun to try

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote freaksoftware Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2004 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Powder_pirate Powder_pirate wrote:

Forget potato cannons, tennis ball cannons,
even model rocketry.  Here comes the new and exciting sport of Co2 tank
launching.  Simply lower full Co2 tank into a mortar with an open
breach.  Then using a wrench undo the copper thingy and there you go. 
Liftoff via Co2 propulsion.


...Ok I want everyone to know that post is a joke, but then again it
would be fun to try



I'm dying.... i know people that would try it lol. We blew up a WD40
can with a piccalo pete once. But anyway.....


So just grab some Loc-Tite Threadlockers and squeeze it on the the
threads? (After the tank is emptied obviously.)

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/products/detail.asp?
catid=10&subid=48&plid=153

(The stupid forums won't let me post this as an actual link. It keeps
inserting line breaks in the middle. Grrrr)

Edited by freaksoftware
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SemperPB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2004 at 11:38pm

Originally posted by tippy a-5 guy tippy a-5 guy wrote:

can you imagine what would happen if it was an HPA  tank? you think the co2 tank could make a mess try 73ci/4500psi flying off.....that would suck ace

This is what would happen.

http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadi d=222498&highlight=new+tv+hole+in+wall



Edited by SemperPB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Layman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2004 at 10:15am
Originally posted by Rock Slide Rock Slide wrote:

The valves NEED to be Lock Tite'ed in the tank.  I like the nail polish idea...



NO! Tom Kaye of Air Gun Designs, the guy who is responsible for HPA systems being in the sport, is quoted as saying that the DOT says DO NOT USE LocTite. Look for the All new players please read this, really thread for the whole picture.

If you use a chemical bond on the threads you run a high risk of blocking the safety holes that are cross drilled into the lower half of most valves.

LocTite is a no-no!
d

Edited by Layman
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whazuuup! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2004 at 8:12pm

So instead of using loc-tite, you are just supposed to crank the valve back on the tank with some special torque wrench??

1. That doesn't sound safe.

2. What kind of wrench?

3. To what amount of torque are you supposed to crank it on there?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2004 at 9:14pm

Originally posted by spyderjunke spyderjunke wrote:

somone said you got thorw them away after 15 years if so thats is a waste of money but if is to safe i'll spend the money

psssst. read your co2 can again. Its more like 5 years max.

Allot of little ones play this with little envolvement from their parents. Me being a new daddy, if my kid wanted to get into any sport that involves high pressure tanks and flying projectiles traveling at 200+fps then I would make sure they get the proper safety training.

Dont blame the ignorance of children, they dont know better. Blame the parents.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bobeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2004 at 8:54pm
omg.........  I didnt know what would happen but i was unsrewing a Brass Eagle tank that i got free from Galyan's and the brass part came off.  I was like WTF?   I thought it miight shoot out so i put it away.  I didnt know it was that dangerous.  Pretty scary stuff.  Ill still play paintball but ill check my tanks more often.  And that nail polish idea is good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Picasso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2004 at 8:23pm

OK OK....  

Per Layman's post,  Glen Palmer did NOT write that LOC TITE clogged the safety vent hole.

here is Palmer's text, excerpted, word for word.

---

"There were no signs that the valve had been tightened sufficiently into the tank and there was no sign of chemical bonding materials having been used at the last installation of the valve. However, the Safety vent hole in valve neck was plugged with an unknown substance."

---

UNKNOWN SUBSTANCE.  Palmer knows what LOC TITE is,  he would have said so, if that's what was found...who knows what it was??

JB Weld, perhaps??  its just a guess.

The Term for what is used on the Threads is a "Chemical Bonding Agent".

 I've worked on both Co2 tanks and HPA tanks.  One's that had never been tampered with, never had anyone else unscrew them.

Each and every one of them I have removed have had a "Chemical Bonding Agent" on them.

The manufacturers put it there.  Why?  ask them.  What do they use?  ask them.

Now,  here is another fact.  There is no such thing as a "Certified Airsmith".   There is no test,  there is no licsence.

The only "certification" that a person can get,  is from gun makers who will give classes on how to repair their guns.  Fro example: You can go see Bob Long and be "certified" by him to work on his Intimidators.  You can do the same with many other gun brands.

  There is no "Certification" for anyone to work on generic high pressure systems in paintball.   I held a certification with the CGA (Compressed Gas Assoc.) for handling Pressure vessels.  There were classes and a test and a certificate that I had successfully completed the course.  What did that do for me??

  It provided documentation that I was trained in the safe handling and transportation of Compressed Gas Cylinders.  That's it.  It wasn't a class on how to repair them, hwo to fix them, etc.  Just how to handle them based on DOT specs.

So, don't think that there is any one person,  who is the "paintball god" who has all the answers.  the only people that should speak for these pressure vessels and the valves that are installed on them are the manufacturers themselves.

Tom Kaye supposedly wrote that "LOCK TIGHT" should not be used, the valve should be torqued with a "special" strap wrench.

First I think Mr. Kaye knows that Loc Tite (brand) is spelled this way, not the other. 

I'm not going to argue with Mr. Kaye, but I have a question for the manufacturers....if Loc Tite is not used on tank valve threads as he suppoedly suggests, then, what is the stuff i see on all of the valves I remove from tanks???

It is what I referred to before as a "Chemical Bonding Agent".  They put somthing on them ,  it hardens, and makes them more  difficult to remove.

I always use a vice/clamp and tools,  like a "special strap wrench" to remove valves (and reinstall them). 

 Sometimes I even have to apply a little heat to them in order to get them to turn. 

 I can't, for the life of me, imagine that a factory installed valve would come out of a factory bottle by hand-force alone!  The bottles in question were tampered with by someone who didn't have a clue what they were doing.

 

  The message hear is:  Don't mess with Safety!

Don't try to fix, repair or modify a tank, valve, or anything carrying high pressure unless you are trained and/or know what you are doing!

Also be sure that any used tank, Co2 or HPA, that you buy or use, hasn't been tampered with, and has a current hydro test date.

Safety Safety Safety!!!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChadwickVM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2004 at 2:27pm

How close together were these two deaths?  They seem to have been pretty close together a bit strange.  Just goes to show you that as PB has become more popular people have become less concerned w/ saftey.  Moving to mainstream could have a bumpy path infront of it.

Now I'm almost worried to even have my co2 taken to an airsmith to have an anti-siphon tube put in.  It sounds to me like the kid was able to unscrew the valve from the tank much easier than it should have been.  To me that sounds like a factory problem.  If he recieved it on his birth day and it was lock-tight'ed shut nothing short of a wrench should have been able to remove it from the bottle.

Just my 2 cents

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