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Shots fired in DC - Discuss.

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__sneaky__ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2013 at 11:35pm
I will be honest, before I had any real details about the incident, I had just heard that shots were fired in DC; my first instinct was that some redneck just really didn't understand what a government shutdown was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 7:26am
Scotchy, cops do not shoot just to defend themselves.  They have a responsibility to take the safety of everyone else into consideration.  If there is a loony indiscriminately ramming things with her car, it is only a matter of time before she hits a another car or a pedestrian and kills them and it is the cops responsibility to keep that from happening.  The street isn't really a place where you just "let them go until they get tired."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 8:18am
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:



Scotchy, cops do not shoot just to defend themselves.  They have a responsibility to take the safety of everyone else into consideration.  If there is a loony indiscriminately ramming things with her car, it is only a matter of time before she hits a another car or a pedestrian and kills them and it is the cops responsibility to keep that from happening.  The street isn't really a place where you just "let them go until they get tired."


That's a given over here. But what about the fact that reports state that she stopped the car at the capitol and exited the vehicle without being armed and was shot by the Capitol police (who, btw, are pretty much just a hair above rent-a-cops by the standards of every other LE division in the area.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 10:28am
I haven't been keeping up with the story, but that obviously changes things.  If they had been better trained they would have known to shoot her before she had the chance to exit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 10:36am
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/us-capitol-lockdown-reports-gunshots

That is just a short portion of video. Once the car has gone behind that wall I'll admit there could possibly be a direct threat to life. I don't however really believe that there was. It almost seems like they were using gunfire to stop a moving vehicle that they had not properly contained.

It seems to me that the police must have saw the child in the car or have no excuse to have not. If your that close and you don't check then your going to get sacked if you were the one that shot at the vehicle.

Eville, I get that and in many other situations I would say "Well don't risk other peoples lives and you wouldn't have gotten shot" but I just think that although a shooting could well have been appropriate further down the line I don't think sufficient reason to shoot had been created at that point and that the police had not attempted the standard initial measures of containment, rather that point a gun through the side window why not get your baton and smash in the front windscreen? Why not get more cars to box her in on one of the numerous occasions the car was stationary?

I wasn't so much going for a "let them go until they get tired" approach but rather a proper evaluation of probable outcomes. Firstly the possible perceived targets like the White house are on lock down. She's not getting near them (and at the time of shooting she was 1.7miles away). Secondly what actions have been displayed that show an intent or likelyhood to take life? Erratic driving definitely sends a message they need to be stopped but not IMO by killing them. 

If the police had attempted to contain the situation as they probably would have if they weren't all so pumped up that Olympus was falling then I reckon the worst case scenario is property damage. Possibly hundreds of thousands of your American Dollars but still minor enough to allow this mentally ill person to live and receive treatment. As always these statements come with a 20/20 hindsight disclaimer.

I'm probably going to get schooled on polis procedure now and that's fine by me, I'm not an expert just a guy giving his reaction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 11:50am
Originally posted by scotchyscotch scotchyscotch wrote:

I'm probably going to get schooled on polis procedure now and that's fine by me, I'm not an expert just a guy giving his reaction.


Police procedures over here are quite a bit different than in the UK, I'm sure.



As for the video, I didn't get a chance to see the one you posted as I'm at work, but one of the earlier ones I saw online was from the capitol grounds where the woman almost runs over an officer on foot.

As for just trying to contain her, I'm going to assume that you've never been to DC, let alone the capitol complex. You have one of the biggest pedestrian traffic areas in the US in the area where she was going fark-nutz-crazy. It's filled with lots of green spaces, walking paths, and roads. It's almost impossible to truly barricade all that area and prevent her from causing any harm to pedestrians or other traffic. They should have boxed her in more effectively when she hit the bollards the first time at the Capitol building, but barring that, they should have used some other countermeasure available such as spike strips to bring her vehicle to a halt. Of course, I wasn't there and hindsight/armchair policing is always 20/20 on issues like these. I can see shooting at the vehicle, I can't see shooting her as she stepped out of the vehicle without a weapon of any kind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaiNTbALLfReNzY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 3:04pm
I would think that since she came out of the vehicle without a weapon (or anything in her hands for that matter), police could have used a non-lethal option, i.e. taser. Hard to say whether or not lethal force was the right call, but in a situation like that I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect police officers to dissect the reason why she's ramming barricades, especially when there are civilians and other officers around who could be injured. She wasn't a terrorist and she didn't have a trunk full of sem-tex (thankfully), but how would the police know that? People will say the police were trigger happy, but people can't just ram barricades and expect the police to pull them aside and ask them "what's going on?".

Just my opinion though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I will be honest, before I had any real details about the incident, I had just heard that shots were fired in DC; my first instinct was that some redneck just really didn't understand what a government shutdown was.


Same here. Ironically Fox News hinted at the same thing.

Anywhere else in the US there's a good chance they may have taken her alive or at least had more room to work with, but as others have pointed out there's very little room for error in DC.

Also, the political environment being what it is after the shutdown I'm sure authorities were already on pins and needles. Really this comes down to the very worst place at the worst time to pull a stunt like that.
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