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Shots fired in DC - Discuss.

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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 October 2013 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I will be honest, before I had any real details about the incident, I had just heard that shots were fired in DC; my first instinct was that some redneck just really didn't understand what a government shutdown was.


Same here. Ironically Fox News hinted at the same thing.

Anywhere else in the US there's a good chance they may have taken her alive or at least had more room to work with, but as others have pointed out there's very little room for error in DC.

Also, the political environment being what it is after the shutdown I'm sure authorities were already on pins and needles. Really this comes down to the very worst place at the worst time to pull a stunt like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaiNTbALLfReNzY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 3:04pm
I would think that since she came out of the vehicle without a weapon (or anything in her hands for that matter), police could have used a non-lethal option, i.e. taser. Hard to say whether or not lethal force was the right call, but in a situation like that I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect police officers to dissect the reason why she's ramming barricades, especially when there are civilians and other officers around who could be injured. She wasn't a terrorist and she didn't have a trunk full of sem-tex (thankfully), but how would the police know that? People will say the police were trigger happy, but people can't just ram barricades and expect the police to pull them aside and ask them "what's going on?".

Just my opinion though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 11:50am
Originally posted by scotchyscotch scotchyscotch wrote:

I'm probably going to get schooled on polis procedure now and that's fine by me, I'm not an expert just a guy giving his reaction.


Police procedures over here are quite a bit different than in the UK, I'm sure.



As for the video, I didn't get a chance to see the one you posted as I'm at work, but one of the earlier ones I saw online was from the capitol grounds where the woman almost runs over an officer on foot.

As for just trying to contain her, I'm going to assume that you've never been to DC, let alone the capitol complex. You have one of the biggest pedestrian traffic areas in the US in the area where she was going fark-nutz-crazy. It's filled with lots of green spaces, walking paths, and roads. It's almost impossible to truly barricade all that area and prevent her from causing any harm to pedestrians or other traffic. They should have boxed her in more effectively when she hit the bollards the first time at the Capitol building, but barring that, they should have used some other countermeasure available such as spike strips to bring her vehicle to a halt. Of course, I wasn't there and hindsight/armchair policing is always 20/20 on issues like these. I can see shooting at the vehicle, I can't see shooting her as she stepped out of the vehicle without a weapon of any kind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 10:36am
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/us-capitol-lockdown-reports-gunshots

That is just a short portion of video. Once the car has gone behind that wall I'll admit there could possibly be a direct threat to life. I don't however really believe that there was. It almost seems like they were using gunfire to stop a moving vehicle that they had not properly contained.

It seems to me that the police must have saw the child in the car or have no excuse to have not. If your that close and you don't check then your going to get sacked if you were the one that shot at the vehicle.

Eville, I get that and in many other situations I would say "Well don't risk other peoples lives and you wouldn't have gotten shot" but I just think that although a shooting could well have been appropriate further down the line I don't think sufficient reason to shoot had been created at that point and that the police had not attempted the standard initial measures of containment, rather that point a gun through the side window why not get your baton and smash in the front windscreen? Why not get more cars to box her in on one of the numerous occasions the car was stationary?

I wasn't so much going for a "let them go until they get tired" approach but rather a proper evaluation of probable outcomes. Firstly the possible perceived targets like the White house are on lock down. She's not getting near them (and at the time of shooting she was 1.7miles away). Secondly what actions have been displayed that show an intent or likelyhood to take life? Erratic driving definitely sends a message they need to be stopped but not IMO by killing them. 

If the police had attempted to contain the situation as they probably would have if they weren't all so pumped up that Olympus was falling then I reckon the worst case scenario is property damage. Possibly hundreds of thousands of your American Dollars but still minor enough to allow this mentally ill person to live and receive treatment. As always these statements come with a 20/20 hindsight disclaimer.

I'm probably going to get schooled on polis procedure now and that's fine by me, I'm not an expert just a guy giving his reaction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 10:28am
I haven't been keeping up with the story, but that obviously changes things.  If they had been better trained they would have known to shoot her before she had the chance to exit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 8:18am
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:



Scotchy, cops do not shoot just to defend themselves.  They have a responsibility to take the safety of everyone else into consideration.  If there is a loony indiscriminately ramming things with her car, it is only a matter of time before she hits a another car or a pedestrian and kills them and it is the cops responsibility to keep that from happening.  The street isn't really a place where you just "let them go until they get tired."


That's a given over here. But what about the fact that reports state that she stopped the car at the capitol and exited the vehicle without being armed and was shot by the Capitol police (who, btw, are pretty much just a hair above rent-a-cops by the standards of every other LE division in the area.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 7:26am
Scotchy, cops do not shoot just to defend themselves.  They have a responsibility to take the safety of everyone else into consideration.  If there is a loony indiscriminately ramming things with her car, it is only a matter of time before she hits a another car or a pedestrian and kills them and it is the cops responsibility to keep that from happening.  The street isn't really a place where you just "let them go until they get tired."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2013 at 11:35pm
I will be honest, before I had any real details about the incident, I had just heard that shots were fired in DC; my first instinct was that some redneck just really didn't understand what a government shutdown was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2013 at 11:25pm
I guess I just think in this case, shooting should not have been the default position. 

It would have been easier for the reaction force cops to try and contain the situation, stay out of harms way and allow property damage until she was burned out then grab her. 

I do understand the seriousness of ramming officers and the inherent dangers/lethality thereof and please don't think I am claiming to have witnessed the event and know the exact circumstances. However I would think shooting a person should only be a last ditch effort. ie you can't chase someone down the road and shoot them because they nearly killed you with their car earlier. If a car is coming at you then you get out the way, if it's too late or you otherwise can't get out the way then I can accept putting a couple into the car. I just don't think it was really necessary from the limited info I have.This is just my gut feeling. 

Originally posted by USAF USAF wrote:

Two things though.

1) It's just about impossible to tell if there's a car seat in a vehicle while it's driving around unless you are level with it, and, This is definitely a fair point, but I still think that the fact nobody saw the seat /child can indicate the reaction was rushed, circumstantially at least

2) Children being involved doesn't do much to stop hardened criminals or crazies.
Correct again, but I would hope it would have a bearing on any law enforcement response.


 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NANomaD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2013 at 10:31pm
Ill add my two cents "She Missed"....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadeye007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2013 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:


Yeah, a vehicle is a weapon  and if you are willing to do anything to flee the scene include nearly killing me. I would also pump that car full of lead. It's also pretty damn hard to see a car seat in a car when you are in a high speed chase.








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 October 2013 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by scotchyscotch scotchyscotch wrote:

I'm with FE on this. (not Obamacare) It seems weird that the police couldn't identify that there was a child n the vehicle before opening fire. I would consider the fact they didn't know who was in the car as reason enough not to shoot. Also property damage and failure to stop can't justify shooting somebody. You never know they have mental health issues.

Two things though.

1) It's just about impossible to tell if there's a car seat in a vehicle while it's driving around unless you are level with it, and,

2) Children being involved doesn't do much to stop hardened criminals or crazies.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2013 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

You sure you want to go there?.


Actually, probably not because I'm sure we'd all agree. No fun in that.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2013 at 6:24pm
I'm probably the last one to side with cops on most issues, but the video when they initially fire. After she nearly hits the cops

Yeah, a vehicle is a weapon  and if you are willing to do anything to flee the scene include nearly killing me. I would also pump that car full of lead. It's also pretty damn hard to see a car seat in a car when you are in a high speed chase.

The crazy label can be applied to most crimes.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2013 at 5:26pm
I'm with FE on this. (not Obamacare) It seems weird that the police couldn't identify that there was a child n the vehicle before opening fire. I would consider the fact they didn't know who was in the car as reason enough not to shoot. Also property damage and failure to stop can't justify shooting somebody. You never know they have mental health issues.

And really what was the probable worst case scenario here? I doubt she really got anywhere near the buildings/politicians and it seemed like the public were in general well out of the way. So if it was a car filled with sem-tex it was reasonably well contained. Not that the police look to have really believed this was likely seeing how closely they were following in the videos I saw.

I would think the mentally ill tag came about pretty organically after this nutter started zooming about Capital Hill. I know as soon as me and my friends heard about this and found out it was a woman. We were pretty quick to start making jokes about the fact she was probably on her period and just trying to park. (this was before we heard of any shooting)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2013 at 4:38pm
ha...

You sure you want to go there? Everything I predicted has come true. One of my co-workers brought her own insurance when we hired her. She was paying $450 a month, and she was just informed that her plan expires at the end of the year and won't be offered anymore because of Obamacare....


So she just checked out what her new Obamacare approved plan would cost... She is freaking out since it is $1,100 a MONTH. Just for INSURANCE, that doesn't include the actual costs of the visits/medicine and everything else. 

People are getting ready to FREAK out when they realize how much they will have to pay under Obamacare. 


If you saw my post on facebook, then you saw about "Chad" who is being promoted as a success story of Obamacare by so many in the press... Too bad he didn't actually sign up, and the numbers that they were reporting were completely wrong. 

His plan prior to Obamacare was $40. The papers are all reporting (and the white house as well) that he signed up for a $175 plan under Obamacare. 

Turns out, he didn't actually sign up, and the REAL cost for him is $225.09...

Yeah, we now pay $225.09 when we used to pay $40. 

Sounds affordable to me!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2013 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

It was strange how fast they labeled her as "crazy" too. I don't know... it is just a really strange story.


Yeah, I think the crazy label was perfectly appropriate.

I do wish that there were more "nonlethal" ways of stopping a car at those barricades. Also, they seem rather ineffective if a soccer mom in an Infinity can cause that much ruckus.

FE-I'm going to have to start a healthcare thread now that you're back to posting ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2013 at 11:38am
Yeah, they're countermeasures to prevent vehicles from ramming through security checkpoints at high rates of speed. Guess the officers kinda forgot which streets they were on.

I didn't hear any reports of her mental health issues until late last night after her name had been released. The primary reports cited her boyfriend (father of her child) as the source of the mental health issues. He called mental health services on her back in December because of the things she was allegedly saying and he thought she might be a danger to their recently born child.

She apparently believed that BHO was "stalking" her and that he had her town "locked down" so she couldn't escape. Her former boss said that he had to let her go because patients were complaining that she was being too harsh with them while performing her dental hygienist's duties.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2013 at 10:44am
I'm not saying I know anything about it, it just is a strange story. I read that they thought she was mentally ill minutes after it happened. I though it was strange that they would know that in minutes after it went down... As usually with the hippa laws you would think it would take a while to make that assessment. Course she was trying to run over barricades... so there's that...



Barricades just pop up in DC? Man, that would stink... Driving along, and all of a sudden huge barricade jumps up in front of you without warning... Seems like that could be dangerous, you know an officer could end up running into one you just popped up if he was chasing someone.


Oh wait. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2013 at 10:28am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:





Did you see the cop car that was destroyed? How did that happen?... And shooting at a unarmed lady in a car with a toddler inside... That is never going to go well for the police... It  was strange how fast they labeled her as "crazy" too. I don't know... it is just a really strange story.

A) Have you seen anything that indicates they knew there was a child on board while she was slamming into cars with her vehicle?

B) I imagine the "crazy" label is coming from confirmed past mental illness situations in her life. That, and a sane person doesn't do that kind of thing with a child in the car....
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