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U.S. Army saying Adios to the M9

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 2:35am
Glocks don't have external safeties. (Manually switching the safety on and off, usually with the thumb) These use a trigger safety. 

So morons have had negligent discharges when they put their booger hook on the bang button when they aren't suppose to. Or some foreign object gets inside the trigger guard and activates the trigger. (Still a negligent discharge)

When NYPD adopted the Glock they installed heaver trigger springs to combat negligent discharges. There are countless stories of cops negligent discharging Glocks.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 4:59am

Adding to that, civilian cops tend to be a bit brighter than Army cops.  Civilians get to choose who they want to hire, have age limits, etc.  We just get whomever gets off the bus and have to do our best with them.  We have people who can't even pass a drivers test, but are expected to be able to handle a firearm.  I am a huge proponent of any additional safety feature they want to put on. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 7:59am
To clarify I wasn't poking fun at Cops, just illustrating that guys with adequate range and class time still have ND's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 8:45am
IIn layman's terms, Glocks are far from idiot proof.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 9:46am
A large portion of accidental police shootings each year come from officers not exercising proper trigger discipline. They draw their weapon on a suspect and rather than keeping their finger on the slide rail until ready to discharge, they slip it down to the trigger. Glocks don't have a heavy trigger pull in SA (single action) and the trigger safety doesn't take much of anything to depress. All it takes is the tensing of your finger for the sucker to go off in a lot of cases.

I personally dislike Glocks because of this, and the fact that it's never truly "safe" compared to a firearm with redundant safeties. Even my commie PA-63 has a thumb safety with decocker and the soviets were renown for not putting manual safeties on their pistol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 9:56am
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

To clarify I wasn't poking fun at Cops, just illustrating that guys with adequate range and class time still have ND's.

Yup. My dad is about as qualified and experienced with handguns as anyone in the country and he had an AD/ND after serving a search warrant in the rain. One of the draw strings from his jacket slipped down into the holster, and when he re-holstered his weapon, it fired from inside the holster and struck him in the calf.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:



I personally dislike Glocks because of this, and the fact that it's never truly "safe" compared to a firearm with redundant safeties. Even my commie PA-63 has a thumb safety with decocker and the soviets were renown for not putting manual safeties on their pistol.


Depending on how you get an M&P, there's no manual safety on them either. Mine is completely devoid of external safeties. The only thing I have is a magazine disconnect, which prevents the gun from firing without a magazine in the well, even if there's a round in the chamber.

There's no de-cocker or anything along those lines.
I used to shy away from anything that lacked safeties, but they're like anything else- if you take the time to practice and learn them, you're going to be just as safe as the guy with safety redundancies.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 2:48pm
I have an FNP 9 without safety. The newer versions have them and every other feature the military likes. They come in both striker and hammer variants, in 9mm, .40, and .45. I'm surprised to see the article didn't mention them..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:


Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:



I personally dislike Glocks because of this, and the fact that it's never truly "safe" compared to a firearm with redundant safeties. Even my commie PA-63 has a thumb safety with decocker and the soviets were renown for not putting manual safeties on their pistol.


Depending on how you get an M&P, there's no manual safety on them either. Mine is completely devoid of external safeties. The only thing I have is a magazine disconnect, which prevents the gun from firing without a magazine in the well, even if there's a round in the chamber.

There's no de-cocker or anything along those lines.
I used to shy away from anything that lacked safeties, but they're like anything else- if you take the time to practice and learn them, you're going to be just as safe as the guy with safety redundancies.


Ehhh... yes and no. If you put your Glock in a specific holster made just for it, then yes. If you put it in a generic holster, no, it's not as safe to carry. My absolute favorite are the guys who carry a Glock with a "Glock Clip" instead of a holster. Just waiting to shoot themselves unless they carry unchambered.

Now. If a Glock had a grip safety in addition to the trigger safety, I'd be more inclined to use them.

As for me, I stick to my dinosaurs. Getting a FEG P9M soon, (Browning Hi-Power) and my PA-63 does just fine for CCW.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 7:04pm
You my friend would like the XD line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

You my friend would like the XD line.


Why go new combloc when I can go old combloc for less than half the price?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 9:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadeye007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2013 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

You my friend would like the XD line.


I had no intentions of buying a "Glock clone", but I stumbled across an XDm in .45acp and purchased it. I still love Glock, but that XDm beat every expectation I had for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2013 at 12:57am
The Glock has nothing stoping it firing if you pull the trigger. Simple I know but institutions like to prevent guns going off if someone is doing something stupid with it. This ends up with things like 12 lbs triggers on Glocks in some places. Great for preventing officer Doofus from shooting himself, but also prevents officer Kick Butt effevtively face shooting a threat.

Many institutions like there to be a physical barrier to overcome before a gun will fire. Heavy trigger pull, extra safety to manipulate or something too make sure you really want the gun to go bang and you aren't just a moron with inadequate training doing something dumb.

The M 16/M4 is a great gun. There isn't anything in the pipeline that offers a substantial improvement in performance. There is a marginal improvement that isn't enough to justify changing everything. The guys who need it have SCAR rifles. After ten years in the desert you'd thing they'd stop giving advice like run the guns dry to prevent dust build up. Mechanical devices need lube. Passing a white glove inspection isn't as important as keeping the gun running. But then how many people actually fired their M4's in combat.

Sure some are old and worn out, as are the SAWs, But replacing them wholesale isn't needed. The latest PIP brief for the M4 will go a long way to fixing some of its real deficiencies.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2013 at 1:18am
Wow there was an entire page a hadn't read, sorry for repeating what others had said.

You shouldn't be carrying a Glock in a generic holster. You shouldn't be carrying ANYTHING in a generic holster. Saying you don't like Glocks because they aren't safe in a generic holster is like saying you don't like diamonds because they rattle around inside a film canister or something. With Kydex being so freely available you should be able to get a specific holster for anything. Get propper gear and it will be fine.

Aren't Fobbits and the like required to carry the chamber empty anyway? So the need for a safety is removed. I thought you only put one up outside the wire?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveEllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2013 at 1:18am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:



I personally dislike Glocks because of this, and the fact that it's never truly "safe" compared to a firearm with redundant safeties. Even my commie PA-63 has a thumb safety with decocker and the soviets were renown for not putting manual safeties on their pistol.


Depending on how you get an M&P, there's no manual safety on them either. Mine is completely devoid of external safeties. The only thing I have is a magazine disconnect, which prevents the gun from firing without a magazine in the well, even if there's a round in the chamber.

There's no de-cocker or anything along those lines.
I used to shy away from anything that lacked safeties, but they're like anything else- if you take the time to practice and learn them, you're going to be just as safe as the guy with safety redundancies.

A magazine disconnect has no place on a duty gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2013 at 11:03am
I don't see the benefit on any gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2013 at 10:57pm
I like revolvers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2013 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

The Glock has nothing stoping it firing if you pull the trigger. Simple I know but institutions like to prevent guns going off if someone is doing something stupid with it. This ends up with things like 12 lbs triggers on Glocks in some places. Great for preventing officer Doofus from shooting himself, but also prevents officer Kick Butt effevtively face shooting a threat.

Many institutions like there to be a physical barrier to overcome before a gun will fire. Heavy trigger pull, extra safety to manipulate or something too make sure you really want the gun to go bang and you aren't just a moron with inadequate training doing something dumb.

My thought has always been get better people and conduct better training but that isn't always as easy as it sounds to do.

The M 16/M4 is a great gun. There isn't anything in the pipeline that offers a substantial improvement in performance. There is a marginal improvement that isn't enough to justify changing everything. The guys who need it have SCAR rifles. After ten years in the desert you'd thing they'd stop giving advice like run the guns dry to prevent dust build up. Mechanical devices need lube. Passing a white glove inspection isn't as important as keeping the gun running. But then how many people actually fired their M4's in combat.

By now, quite a few.  However, institutions don't change and I will bet there are still idiots who expect there troops in combat to have flawlessly clean weapons and freshly pressed uniforms.

As far as the oil thing, the answer is to lube to normal standards and clean the weapon more often, but nobody wants to hear that.  (You would think that if someone has a tool that their life depends on that they wouldn't have problems with properly maintaining it.)

Sure some are old and worn out, as are the SAWs, But replacing them wholesale isn't needed. The latest PIP brief for the M4 will go a long way to fixing some of its real deficiencies.

KBK


Originally posted by SSOK SSOK wrote:

I like revolvers.


Ditto.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ceesman762 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2013 at 11:02am
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:




By now, quite a few.  However, institutions don't change and I will bet there are still idiots who expect there troops in combat to have flawlessly clean weapons and freshly pressed uniforms.





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