Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

So I've ceased to understand

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Reb Cpl View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
2010 Worst Luck award winner

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14004
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

This case has left a pretty solid distaste in my mouth for the act of carrying firearms. It's a growing distaste I've had for a while now. At one point I didn't seem to mind it as a concept, but I've begun to realize that people who carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise, are hoping they get to shoot someone. I hear lots of empty talk about hoping and praying that one never has to use it, but that's a dissonance-filled projected lie. If not having to use it was such a powerful thing that one hopes and prays, they'd just leave it at home.

**************

Personally, this case makes me pretty frightened of people who conceal carry. Granted, this case had no wide-spread precedent, it's troubling because of the potential basis made for state cases. Martin may have very well started the violent portion of the confrontation, but it was against someone who instigated the initial confrontation by stalking the person in a place they had every right to be. There is no indication that Martin didn't believe he was acting in his own self defense against someone following him against his will. Essentially the state just said it was totally fine to carry a gun, instigate a confrontation, and if you lose, shoot the person who ends up besting you because you felt threatened. 

So yeah, I'm not big on hanging out with people who carry anymore. 


One guy in Florida gets into a bad situation and does something stupid, and all of a sudden, the rest of the people  who carry are wannabe killers?

Being prepared to use deadly physical force for self defense or the termination/prevention of a dangerous crime =/= hoping you get to shoot someone when you carry.
I won't derail the entire thread by picking it apart and spewing out rhetoric, but in a nutshell, I think your general assessment is more than a little unfair.


Edited by Reb Cpl - 23 July 2013 at 5:52pm


Back to Top
tallen702 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Swearing on Facebook

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: Under Your Bed
Status: Offline
Points: 10951
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

I fully believe that if the state had charged and prosecuted based on a manslaughter charge, the verdict would have been different, even with "stand your ground" legislation. 
 




Do your research Whale, the jury was allowed to convict him of manslaughter even if that wasn't the stated charge.

In fact, half of the jury originally voted to convict him of manslaughter or murder, but found, upon further examination of the law, that he wasn't guilty of anything under the law.

See, this is where I just shake my head at the faked outrage. You say it was racially motivated profiling. Zimmerman has been shown to be the opposite of racially motivated to the point that he dimed out some cops he was on a ride-along with for doing exactly what you are accusing him of. And to quote the internet's favorite thugs' lawyer Peter 'P'Ta Mon' John, "This is America, you are free to be profiled if you fit the profile." If you don't want to be suspected of being up to no good, don't go slinking around unlit areas of residential neighborhoods in a hoodie. If it'd been a white kid acting in the same manner with the same walk and the same outfit, he'd have had the cops called on him and he would have been followed just the same.

Just because the NAACP and the president decide to call it "racially motivated" doesn't actually make it so.
<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
Back to Top
agentwhale007 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Forum's Vladimir Lenin

Joined: 20 June 2002
Location: GNV FLA
Status: Offline
Points: 11696
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

 
Do your research Whale, the jury was allowed to convict him of manslaughter even if that wasn't the stated charge.

I've not said anything to the contrary. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




Back to Top
agentwhale007 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Forum's Vladimir Lenin

Joined: 20 June 2002
Location: GNV FLA
Status: Offline
Points: 11696
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

If you don't want to be suspected of being up to no good, don't go slinking around unlit areas of residential neighborhoods in a hoodie. If it'd been a white kid acting in the same manner with the same walk and the same outfit, he'd have had the cops called on him and he would have been followed just the same.

lol
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




Back to Top
tallen702 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Swearing on Facebook

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: Under Your Bed
Status: Offline
Points: 10951
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:


Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

If you don't want to be suspected of being up to no good, don't go slinking around unlit areas of residential neighborhoods in a hoodie. If it'd been a white kid acting in the same manner with the same walk and the same outfit, he'd have had the cops called on him and he would have been followed just the same.


lol


And you think you're the rational one in this whole conversation......
<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
Back to Top
Lightningbolt View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
PHAT and PLAT

Joined: 10 July 2002
Location: Dean's List
Status: Offline
Points: 4889
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 9:00am
The generalization about people that elect to have an option to protect their family and self is a very bizarre box. Whale abducted?

I don't understand how someone that probably aced philosophy of logic, even setting aside the subject, arrives at this invalid statement.

Edited by Lightningbolt - 24 July 2013 at 9:07am
Back to Top
Kayback View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Ask me about my Kokido

Joined: 25 July 2002
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 4028
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:



How, exactly, was Martin supposed to know that the person stalking him, at night, didn't intend to hurt him? 


I know our laws are different, but you can't attack someone pre-emptively if you think they mean you harm, for exactly this reason. They might not mean you any harm, the attack must have started before you can act in self defense. If you don't, you're the aggressor.

And attack having started may mean you took a step towards me if I've indicated I'm feeling threatened and don't want you to advance on me, I don't need to wait for you to physically hurt me.

Quote but I've begun to realize that people who carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise, are hoping they get to shoot someone. I hear lots of empty talk about hoping and praying that one never has to use it, but that's a dissonance-filled projected lie. If not having to use it was such a powerful thing that one hopes and prays, they'd just leave it at home.


Not so. I carry my gun every day, every waking moment and it is on my bedside table every night. I also hope I never have to use it. I'm not some closet Rambo waiting to gun down someone for looking like they are dangerous. Firstly I don't want to have to deal with the police, lawyers and paperwork in the aftermath of a shooting. Secondly I don't want to be put into the situation where my only option is to kill someone. That isn't a nice experience.

I also won't leave it at home because if I DO end up in those situations I'd rather deal with the paperwork than with being dead or crippled.

I also don't want to ever use the airbag and safety belts and crumple zones in my car, but I'm not gonna have them de-activated. I don't want to ever use the plug and press kit and tourniquets I own, but I don't leave them at home either.

Just because I own something doesn't mean I'm wanting to use it. When I do that, I go to the shooting range.

KBK

Edited by Kayback - 24 July 2013 at 2:18pm
Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2
Back to Top
Lightningbolt View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
PHAT and PLAT

Joined: 10 July 2002
Location: Dean's List
Status: Offline
Points: 4889
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 2:37pm
Kback I was told that the seat belt analogy was poor one.

Killing someone is an extremely gross and undesirable concept.   

Rhetorical- what would you do if someone was cracking your wife in the noggin with a louisville so that they could take her ring?

Edited by Lightningbolt - 24 July 2013 at 2:46pm
Back to Top
Kayback View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Ask me about my Kokido

Joined: 25 July 2002
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 4028
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 2:47pm
How is it a poor one? A life saving device used in extreme situations?

The only difference is the safety belt works on you, while a firearm works on another person. Either way I don't want to ever be without one when I need one.

Out of interest why is the "they only have it to use it" argument never bandied about for pepper spray or tasers? It is only a firearm that they ever "carry because they want to use".

KBK
Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2
Back to Top
Lightningbolt View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
PHAT and PLAT

Joined: 10 July 2002
Location: Dean's List
Status: Offline
Points: 4889
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 3:14pm
I asked him how it was a poor analogy too.   I was open to new ideas but he didn't have an answer as to why the analogy was poor.



Back to Top
Reb Cpl View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
2010 Worst Luck award winner

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14004
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:


Out of interest why is the "they only have it to use it" argument never bandied about for pepper spray or tasers? It is only a firearm that they ever "carry because they want to use".

KBK


This is a better question.
Do people who arm themselves with these items secretly hope they get to use them on someone every day?

No- Odds are they just want to make sure that they and their loved ones are safe in the event of an attack.
But the person that sticks a .380 in their waist or pocketbook cares less about safety, and more about wanting to use it on someone?

Granted, the use of a firearms is more severe an act, but the principal of self and family defense is exactly the same thing.







Back to Top
stratoaxe View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
And my axe...

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6831
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 8:59pm
There has been an unsettling rise in the incident of paranoid nutcases with armories in my part of the country throughout the last few years, and in alot of ways Texas itself is becoming kind of disturbing far right wing playground.

That said, I've never seen abuses of a right as a condemnation of the right itself.
Back to Top
SSOK View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
The Savior of Christmas

Joined: 01 September 2005
Location: PRNJ
Status: Online
Points: 5500
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 9:14pm
Whale, since everyone who carries a gun is hoping they get to shoot someone, that must mean that all black people want to commit crimes, or all journalists must mean they want to twist and distort information, amirite?

Really Whale, you're rather intelligent and you're usually reasonable. I kinda expected better.
Back to Top
StormyKnight View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2980
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2013 at 12:24am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

but I've begun to realize that people who carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise, are hoping they get to shoot someone.

I take offense to this and many other responsible gun owners that carry open and concealed such as myself would too. I don't hope to shoot anyone. I'm sure I'm not alone. I would rather not have to use my gun, but it is there if I have to. I don't know where you get this "realization" from, but I hope it is personal opinion and nothing steeped in facts. If it is, I'd love to see them...

Edited by StormyKnight - 25 July 2013 at 12:24am
Back to Top
Eville View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - 5/19, Filter-dodge

Joined: 19 September 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3147
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2013 at 4:17am
I hope I get to shoot someone.  Violent video games and TV are probably the reason why.
Back to Top
StormyKnight View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2980
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2013 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:



I hope I get to shoot someone.  Violent video games and TV are probably the reason why.

Notable exception allowed.
Back to Top
agentwhale007 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Forum's Vladimir Lenin

Joined: 20 June 2002
Location: GNV FLA
Status: Offline
Points: 11696
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2013 at 11:25pm
On carrying a firearm: I have a different mindset about this than you all do. I'm fine with that. If you're insulted by it, not much I can do about that. 

On the particular case at hand: I think it's important to draw the distinction between the legal outcomes and ramifications of the case and the societal/cultural outcomes and ramifications of the case. I wasn't very clear in my initial posting to draw that line, and it is important. 

If any of y'all feel like talking with me about it, chat me up on Facebook. I don't feel like typing out manuscripts on here. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




Back to Top
Bunkered View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
What AM I smoking?

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5691
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2013 at 5:55pm
Whale, I think your perception of this is based on the idea that all people are equally valuable.
All idealism aside, I place a much higher worth on my safety and that of my family than ANYONE ELSE's. Selfish? Maybe... I don't really care - that's reality.

It's not about "wanting to use it." It's about being prepared and having the option to use it, should it become necessary.

Family Safety > Criminal's Life Flow Chart:

Children>Spouse>Myself>Average_Joe>Thief>Rapist>Murderer
                     
                                        ^ If you don't fall left of this arrow, you probably should probably behave like a civilized human being and: stay out of my house, out of my car, and away from my family members and you will be fine.
If everyone just followed these basic rules, things would be peachy. Unfortunately, people don't parent their children properly and we get incidents like this case.
Unfortunate, yes. Murder? Hardly.
It will only get worse as we find further and further ways to remove personal accountability from our lives.

"I jumped this guy and he shot me..." Boo freakin Hoo. /sarcasm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.