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So I've ceased to understand

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: So I've ceased to understand
    Posted: 26 July 2013 at 5:55pm
Whale, I think your perception of this is based on the idea that all people are equally valuable.
All idealism aside, I place a much higher worth on my safety and that of my family than ANYONE ELSE's. Selfish? Maybe... I don't really care - that's reality.

It's not about "wanting to use it." It's about being prepared and having the option to use it, should it become necessary.

Family Safety > Criminal's Life Flow Chart:

Children>Spouse>Myself>Average_Joe>Thief>Rapist>Murderer
                     
                                        ^ If you don't fall left of this arrow, you probably should probably behave like a civilized human being and: stay out of my house, out of my car, and away from my family members and you will be fine.
If everyone just followed these basic rules, things would be peachy. Unfortunately, people don't parent their children properly and we get incidents like this case.
Unfortunate, yes. Murder? Hardly.
It will only get worse as we find further and further ways to remove personal accountability from our lives.

"I jumped this guy and he shot me..." Boo freakin Hoo. /sarcasm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2013 at 11:25pm
On carrying a firearm: I have a different mindset about this than you all do. I'm fine with that. If you're insulted by it, not much I can do about that. 

On the particular case at hand: I think it's important to draw the distinction between the legal outcomes and ramifications of the case and the societal/cultural outcomes and ramifications of the case. I wasn't very clear in my initial posting to draw that line, and it is important. 

If any of y'all feel like talking with me about it, chat me up on Facebook. I don't feel like typing out manuscripts on here. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2013 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:



I hope I get to shoot someone.  Violent video games and TV are probably the reason why.

Notable exception allowed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2013 at 4:17am
I hope I get to shoot someone.  Violent video games and TV are probably the reason why.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2013 at 12:24am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

but I've begun to realize that people who carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise, are hoping they get to shoot someone.

I take offense to this and many other responsible gun owners that carry open and concealed such as myself would too. I don't hope to shoot anyone. I'm sure I'm not alone. I would rather not have to use my gun, but it is there if I have to. I don't know where you get this "realization" from, but I hope it is personal opinion and nothing steeped in facts. If it is, I'd love to see them...

Edited by StormyKnight - 25 July 2013 at 12:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 9:14pm
Whale, since everyone who carries a gun is hoping they get to shoot someone, that must mean that all black people want to commit crimes, or all journalists must mean they want to twist and distort information, amirite?

Really Whale, you're rather intelligent and you're usually reasonable. I kinda expected better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 8:59pm
There has been an unsettling rise in the incident of paranoid nutcases with armories in my part of the country throughout the last few years, and in alot of ways Texas itself is becoming kind of disturbing far right wing playground.

That said, I've never seen abuses of a right as a condemnation of the right itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:


Out of interest why is the "they only have it to use it" argument never bandied about for pepper spray or tasers? It is only a firearm that they ever "carry because they want to use".

KBK


This is a better question.
Do people who arm themselves with these items secretly hope they get to use them on someone every day?

No- Odds are they just want to make sure that they and their loved ones are safe in the event of an attack.
But the person that sticks a .380 in their waist or pocketbook cares less about safety, and more about wanting to use it on someone?

Granted, the use of a firearms is more severe an act, but the principal of self and family defense is exactly the same thing.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 3:14pm
I asked him how it was a poor analogy too.   I was open to new ideas but he didn't have an answer as to why the analogy was poor.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 2:47pm
How is it a poor one? A life saving device used in extreme situations?

The only difference is the safety belt works on you, while a firearm works on another person. Either way I don't want to ever be without one when I need one.

Out of interest why is the "they only have it to use it" argument never bandied about for pepper spray or tasers? It is only a firearm that they ever "carry because they want to use".

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 2:37pm
Kback I was told that the seat belt analogy was poor one.

Killing someone is an extremely gross and undesirable concept.   

Rhetorical- what would you do if someone was cracking your wife in the noggin with a louisville so that they could take her ring?

Edited by Lightningbolt - 24 July 2013 at 2:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:



How, exactly, was Martin supposed to know that the person stalking him, at night, didn't intend to hurt him? 


I know our laws are different, but you can't attack someone pre-emptively if you think they mean you harm, for exactly this reason. They might not mean you any harm, the attack must have started before you can act in self defense. If you don't, you're the aggressor.

And attack having started may mean you took a step towards me if I've indicated I'm feeling threatened and don't want you to advance on me, I don't need to wait for you to physically hurt me.

Quote but I've begun to realize that people who carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise, are hoping they get to shoot someone. I hear lots of empty talk about hoping and praying that one never has to use it, but that's a dissonance-filled projected lie. If not having to use it was such a powerful thing that one hopes and prays, they'd just leave it at home.


Not so. I carry my gun every day, every waking moment and it is on my bedside table every night. I also hope I never have to use it. I'm not some closet Rambo waiting to gun down someone for looking like they are dangerous. Firstly I don't want to have to deal with the police, lawyers and paperwork in the aftermath of a shooting. Secondly I don't want to be put into the situation where my only option is to kill someone. That isn't a nice experience.

I also won't leave it at home because if I DO end up in those situations I'd rather deal with the paperwork than with being dead or crippled.

I also don't want to ever use the airbag and safety belts and crumple zones in my car, but I'm not gonna have them de-activated. I don't want to ever use the plug and press kit and tourniquets I own, but I don't leave them at home either.

Just because I own something doesn't mean I'm wanting to use it. When I do that, I go to the shooting range.

KBK

Edited by Kayback - 24 July 2013 at 2:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2013 at 9:00am
The generalization about people that elect to have an option to protect their family and self is a very bizarre box. Whale abducted?

I don't understand how someone that probably aced philosophy of logic, even setting aside the subject, arrives at this invalid statement.

Edited by Lightningbolt - 24 July 2013 at 9:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:


Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

If you don't want to be suspected of being up to no good, don't go slinking around unlit areas of residential neighborhoods in a hoodie. If it'd been a white kid acting in the same manner with the same walk and the same outfit, he'd have had the cops called on him and he would have been followed just the same.


lol


And you think you're the rational one in this whole conversation......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

If you don't want to be suspected of being up to no good, don't go slinking around unlit areas of residential neighborhoods in a hoodie. If it'd been a white kid acting in the same manner with the same walk and the same outfit, he'd have had the cops called on him and he would have been followed just the same.

lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

 
Do your research Whale, the jury was allowed to convict him of manslaughter even if that wasn't the stated charge.

I've not said anything to the contrary. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

I fully believe that if the state had charged and prosecuted based on a manslaughter charge, the verdict would have been different, even with "stand your ground" legislation. 
 




Do your research Whale, the jury was allowed to convict him of manslaughter even if that wasn't the stated charge.

In fact, half of the jury originally voted to convict him of manslaughter or murder, but found, upon further examination of the law, that he wasn't guilty of anything under the law.

See, this is where I just shake my head at the faked outrage. You say it was racially motivated profiling. Zimmerman has been shown to be the opposite of racially motivated to the point that he dimed out some cops he was on a ride-along with for doing exactly what you are accusing him of. And to quote the internet's favorite thugs' lawyer Peter 'P'Ta Mon' John, "This is America, you are free to be profiled if you fit the profile." If you don't want to be suspected of being up to no good, don't go slinking around unlit areas of residential neighborhoods in a hoodie. If it'd been a white kid acting in the same manner with the same walk and the same outfit, he'd have had the cops called on him and he would have been followed just the same.

Just because the NAACP and the president decide to call it "racially motivated" doesn't actually make it so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

This case has left a pretty solid distaste in my mouth for the act of carrying firearms. It's a growing distaste I've had for a while now. At one point I didn't seem to mind it as a concept, but I've begun to realize that people who carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise, are hoping they get to shoot someone. I hear lots of empty talk about hoping and praying that one never has to use it, but that's a dissonance-filled projected lie. If not having to use it was such a powerful thing that one hopes and prays, they'd just leave it at home.

**************

Personally, this case makes me pretty frightened of people who conceal carry. Granted, this case had no wide-spread precedent, it's troubling because of the potential basis made for state cases. Martin may have very well started the violent portion of the confrontation, but it was against someone who instigated the initial confrontation by stalking the person in a place they had every right to be. There is no indication that Martin didn't believe he was acting in his own self defense against someone following him against his will. Essentially the state just said it was totally fine to carry a gun, instigate a confrontation, and if you lose, shoot the person who ends up besting you because you felt threatened. 

So yeah, I'm not big on hanging out with people who carry anymore. 


One guy in Florida gets into a bad situation and does something stupid, and all of a sudden, the rest of the people  who carry are wannabe killers?

Being prepared to use deadly physical force for self defense or the termination/prevention of a dangerous crime =/= hoping you get to shoot someone when you carry.
I won't derail the entire thread by picking it apart and spewing out rhetoric, but in a nutshell, I think your general assessment is more than a little unfair.


Edited by Reb Cpl - 23 July 2013 at 5:52pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 4:40pm
Well I had a long response written up that the forum deleted, so I'll just chat with you on FB messenger like always, 'cause I really don't like posting here. 

Edited by agentwhale007 - 23 July 2013 at 4:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2013 at 2:59pm
Whale, I typically line up with you on most issues but I vehemently disagree with a couple of your assessments here.

Primarily, I think your entire argument is hinged on this one statement-

Originally posted by Whale Whale wrote:

I hear lots of empty talk about hoping and praying that one never has to use it, but that's a dissonance-filled projected lie. If not having to use it was such a powerful thing that one hopes and prays, they'd just leave it at home.


I grew up with a gun in my vehicle. I lived 10 miles out in the country where snakes and other unsightly critters tend to scurry around your ankles when you're walking around and that's really a way of life in the south. Up until the last 10 or 15 years shotgun racks were as common as bumper stickers in Texas and I never knew a single one of them that was actually carrying their gun for people reasons.

Are there crazy concealed carry owners out there trigger happy to pop some teenage thug for violating their daughter's purity? Absolutely, but I fully believe that they're a fringe element. For most concealed carriers I know they carry it on the off chance that they find themselves in a situation in which they can save a life (be it their own or their families) in an area where officers may not be able to respond in time. To take that a step further, they don't talk about their guns or let the world know they own them. Saying that not wanting to use something means you'd leave it at home is like saying I really don't want to have a flat so I'll just leave the jack and spare tire in the garage. It doesn't in any way provide meaningful commentary on the mentality of the person in question.

If you're going to judge concealed carry owners, you should do so by the overwhelming statistics and not the occasional cook (and there have been very few of those in crime data.)

Zimmerman, based on what I've seen and heard from the media and prosecution / defense (mainly defense because the prosecution seems to be tongue tied or just completely inept) probably fits the bill of vigilante CCW cook who REALLY wanted to be a cop but couldn't cut it.

That being said, I don't find the discussion of their personalities to be particularly relevant to this case. The internet is full of discussion about these two guys that none of us actually know and of whom very little account exists of any activity before that night, we have people painting Zimmerman as a an all around good guy, others saying he was a power hungry scum bag, then in Martin's camp we have the innocent school boy vs thug who was always in trouble.

Just towing the middle of the line I think that odds were good you have two individuals here who were had very likely made some repeatedly bad decisions and now were about to make a few more. As I said earlier, I'm not in Zimmerman's camp here. In fact, I have no opinion as to either of these guys. The only real value I see in discussing this case is in dissecting the details from a legal standpoint and making a reasonably educated assumption as to the validity of the verdict.

The other place you lost me is here-

Originally posted by whale whale wrote:

. Martin may have very well started the violent portion of the confrontation, but it was against someone who instigated the initial confrontation by stalking the person in a place they had every right to be.


Confronting someone on the street is NOT an instigation for physical violence. You're condemning Zimmerman for his use of force and then justifying the illegal use of force the Martin used.

Originally posted by whale whale wrote:

There is no indication that Martin didn't believe he was acting in his own self defense against someone following him against his will.


Self defense against someone who was on the phone with the police and had no outward indication of being armed? Unless I'm wrong I haven't hear anything about Zimmerman having his gun out while he was following Martin. People keep going on and on about Martin being within his legal rights to be where he was, but Zimmerman was equally within his rights to question Martin as to why he was there. Martin was under no legal obligation to leave, and furthermore didn't OWE Zimmerman an explanation, but saying that Martin being afraid of being "stalked" by Zimmerman after dark is no less questionable than Zimmerman's paranoia of dudes roaming his block after dark.

Also, another detail I keep hearing form this trial that drastically changed my opinion of this case is that not only did Martin disappear from view, Zimmerman was on his way to his truck when Martin emerged from the shadows and began beating him senseless.

So now not only is there an illegal escalation of force, he's actually running after a man with his back turned.

Let's apply that to a concealed handgun owner. Let's go with an unquestionable case of self-defense-you're being robbed at gunpoint. If someone pulls a gun on you and you kill them, there won't even be a question of guilt. Yet, if you wait until this person has walked away with your wallet and shoot them in the back, you've committed a felony and will almost certainly face prison time.

I'm sorry, but just by the details of this case, there's almost no grounds to say that Martin acted in fear for his life. By all details of the case, from the racial expletives he exchanged with his girlfriend while describing Zimmerman, to him physically coming after Zimmerman and proceeding to wail on him with his fists, what I see is a thug who decided that he'd teach someone a lesson and was rudely surprised by a firearm.

Also, let's talk race for a second-

Originally posted by whale whale wrote:


This was a horrible situation, and I think George Zimmerman stalked and killed an unarmed teenager due to racially motivated profiling


First of all, I agree it was a terrible situation. I truly wished Zimmerman had stayed in his car or at the very least martin kept walking instead of decided to assault Zimmerman.

That said, the racially motivated profiling here is receiving far more negative press than it (by the details of the trial, anyway) deserves. This wasn't a case of "OH NO A BLACK GUY IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD." There were repeated burglaries on that block by young men matching Martin's description-young black male wearing a hoodie.

So again, I agree that Zimmerman shouldn't have confronted Martin. But I disagree that there's definitive proof that Zimmerman was just an all out racist who didn't want men with skin pigment in his neighborhood-I think he was trying to curtail what he perceived to be a crime.

Like I said earlier, we can throw away the idea that teenagers walking around neighborhoods they don't live in where burglaries by teenagers happen frequently might arouse suspicion because, you're right, they have a LEGAL right to be there.

But what about Zimmerman's legal right to inquire as to who he is? Again, if you're going to set aside what many might see as a logical reaction on one end simply because the law allows it, you have to allow the same room for Zimmerman.

I think the tragedy of the situation is outweighing the reality of it-it's absolutely terrible that Martin is dead now, but had Zimmerman not killed him would he be alive? Would the media be playing the tragedy of George Zimmerman had Martin beat him to death? Would we be seeing "Trayvon Martin has angel wings" on Facebook had he been allowed to continue the action that was in the middle of attempting when he was shot?

I'm all about criticizing people who abuse their liberties. But let's talk about the fireman that tried to use the stand your ground law in Texas to kill a man in front of his 2 year old daughter and wife at their birthday party because he didn't like the noise-that's cut and dry evil and makes a good case against certain privileges. The Trayvon Martin case is in no way black and white.
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