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Edumacate me on AR15's

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Mr.Sam98C View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 December 2012 at 4:05pm
My brother and I built one with some higher end parts, like a Daniel Defense bolt carrier group (lots say it's one of the best to get) and mil-spec upper and lower. It's a midlength gas system, and we tacked on some nice looking magpul handguards and collapsing stock. All in all it ended up being about $1k. It's also a flat top upper with a detach carry handle, and we tossed a used leupold 2-7X33mm on it, and it really does the buisness for either shooting varmints out to 5, 6 and even 7 (pushing it) hundred yards. But it's still compact enough that it works great for room clearing and up close social work.
In the broad spectrum of bad ideas I think this would have to rate somewhere between running with scissors and sticking your pecker in the toaster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2012 at 1:13pm
I'd love a smith and wesson, but the sporter models they sell here don't have chrome-lined barrels. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2012 at 1:03pm
Hey Kayback.

Ordering my metric pattern FAL receiver this weekend. Getting a matched Belgian-made Israeli metric parts kit with standard rear sight in early Jan. Anything I should know before jumping in with both feet? Shorty and I are both pretty clueless on the FAL other than the historical significance, so I figured I'd ask someone who's been hands-on with one.

Edited by tallen702 - 19 December 2012 at 1:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2012 at 12:45pm

Cabellas and Gander Mountain seem to have the S&Ws for around $1k.

"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2012 at 12:26pm
That's cool. I'm not saying you MUST get one of those, just keep an open mind and do the research. Quite often you'll find, say, a DPMS for the same price as a Colt 6920. Then you'd be much better off getting the Colt.

For bare bones but still really good rifles, (if you can find any at the moment) the Colt 6920, the S&W MP15. You can buy the Colt at Walmart for $1100, roughly.

The thing is you won't need to do ANYTHING to it. It'll run as is through pretty much whatever you want.

There are lesser guns that retail at the same level that aren't as good.

Honestly anything labelled "as good as" is probably not.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2012 at 9:35am
I get what you're saying KBK, but also just in the first stages of even looking at these. Its one of the reasons I asked for some resources to be able to get an idea of where to even go. I have very little info from people around me and figured some of people here would be a good place to at least get an idea of where to look. I know my brother has done some research, but he tends to get very tunnel visioned about things and while he will research the heck out of things before he makes a decision, he still makes very odd decisions sometimes. I'm cheap, but would rather have a solid plain Jane better built ___ than a fancy, flashy POS ____.. You can always add flash, if you have a solid core.
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2012 at 7:37am
Originally posted by deadeye007 deadeye007 wrote:

I don't think supply will meet demand before an executive order to ban "evil black rifles" takes place. Find a lower first, but it might be an uphill battle getting one at a decent price.


Hence my desire for an FAL lower. Now I just need to see which parts kits SARCO has in stock. Metric or Inch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadeye007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:18pm
I don't think supply will meet demand before an executive order to ban "evil black rifles" takes place. Find a lower first, but it might be an uphill battle getting one at a decent price.
Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:09pm
So, I just did a quick check of my usual sources for stripped lowers. Who needs an AWB to prevent the sale of ARs? Apparently not us because you can't even buy the main component necessary to build one at the time of this writing. Found polymer EFFING POLYMER lowers going for $150 on J&G, AIM is out. SOG is out. PSA is out. CMMG is out. I'm guessing DSA and everyone else are in the same boat right now. AR prices jumped yet again. PMags were $60/ea on CTD earlier today, and AKs are hitting the $700 mark as we speak DEALER PRICE. SKSs are still at their pre-weekend prices for Chicom (in crap condition), but it looks like the new batches of Yugos and Albanians that just went up are ~$25-$50 higher than a month ago. CAI has "replacement" receivers still in at $87 for ARs right now, but not sure what their "replacment" deal is. As soon as I find out though, I'm going to buy an inch or metric pattern FAL receiver before my dreams get dashed. Also probably going to spend the $200 or so for a Chicom SKS sooner rather than later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 10:21pm
Colt do not have bad weapons. They are totally top tier. Especially when you are talking about the M4 or .mil spec. The only guys who have the Technical Data Package for building M4's are Colt and FN Hershal. Everyone else, even the good ones, are doing it by ear.

A current Colt will have the correct heat treatment, will have properly staked parts that need staking, will be properly in "spec". The whole "Colt diminishing" is a myth akin to "M16's jam all the time". It simply isn't true.

Like Impulse said, LWRC, Knights Arms, Noveske, BCM, Colt and Daniel Defense are all solid working guns. Even DD had some issued this past year that let some customers down.

Rock River, Stag, Olympic, DPMS, DelTron, Bushmaster, Black Rain and a bunch of other makers all make hobby guns.

GO ask the guys who run them. Pat Rogers for one runs BCM's pretty much exclusively in his classes. He is very free with the info on what performs to standard and what dies. All his after course reports which had hobby guns in the mix mostly had the hobby guns breaking in them. Simply fact. If you shoot a LOT, the hobby guns will fail at a faster rate than the more reliable fighting guns.

It is all in what you need. I only need a rifle capable of a couple of hundred rounds a year. It is all I can afford. So a hobby gun will fit me needs.

Get the right tool for the job.

Buy whichever AR you think you need, but put some thought into it. Also, do proper research. A PB forum isn't it. Be aware that you can end up paying for a DPMS almost as much as a decent manufacturer.

Get an Aimpoint H-1, a Surefire Fury Defender or EAG version in a decent mount like the Viking Tactics and call it a day.

KBK

PS S&W also make more or less hobby guns, but they are on the upper scale of hobby guns.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 5:37pm
Especially with looming bans, a SCAR seems like a bad idea. Good luck finding parts. You want to look for well-built parts, made to appropriate specs. Continental machine tooling is supposed to produce the best parts. Colt, Rock River, S&W, Stag etc. get high marks. I think Stag is a great deal for the money, ugly roll-mark and atrocious muzzle breaks aside.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Buy a SCAR, and be done with it.

If you still want the AR platform. LWRC and Knight Arms. Buy once, cry once.
Quickly googled SCAR prices and most of what I am seeing is $2k +. Aint gonna happen.
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 5:06pm
Why all the bobbles and whistles, have 2 AR-15's one a Colt SP-1 the 'original' AR-15, triangle front handguards, pencil barrel, fixed carry handle, the basic 1 ea semi auto version of the M16A1 rifle of the time. Second is a DPMS clone CAR-15, heavy barrel, heavy compensator, fixed carry handle, A2 sights, a basic 'plinker' or zombie killer, but more a coyote killer anymore.
Simple rifles, can hit out to 250m consistant and accurate, don't need no do-dads or high speed low drag stuff mounted on it to look 'purty'. The KISS principle applies more than not in a firefight.

My M1A (M-14) and my M-1 Garand are for the 250m+ needs, again basic military sights, basic issue models.

My deer rifle alternates between the following, Model 91 45/70 'Buffalo Rifle', M91/30 Moison Nagant, or my Sharps 1863 in .54.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 4:37pm
Buy a SCAR, and be done with it.

If you still want the AR platform. LWRC and Knight Arms. Buy once, cry once.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:52pm
These AR discissions always remind me of talking guitars with my more wealthy friends.

"Mexican strats? You can't tune them. Complete garbage."

"Non custom shop Ibanez? How do your fingers endure that Indonesian wood?"

Teasing, of course (except the quotes-those are real.)

Also, as far as Colt, most AR shooters I know claim Colt build has diminished greatly over the years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:37pm
I can't tell you how Bushmaster's quality is, I'll get a strike.

All in all there are two very separate forms of AR 15 on the market. Working tools and range toys.

There are some good deals to be had if you know what to look for and if you buy the right tool for the job. The hobby guns, $600 guns and the built it yourself ones are more or less all in the same bracket, however you can sometimes end up paying just as much for a hobby level gun as you will for a fighting gun.

If you want a tough as nails, die hard gun that'll see you through the end times, get something from Colt, BCM or a couple of other manufacturers.

A hobby gun is great for a couple of mags per trip to the range. For classes with round counts in the 1500 region you're going to need something better.

If you want a fighting gun, go look at a couple of websites run by fighting men, not hobby shooters.

You'll probably end up paying a wee bit more, but not always.....

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:25pm
My last AR venture was 3 years ago, but at that time they were considered on the mid to high end in terms of holding value.


Of course, the AR design is so mass produced now days you'd likely have to look to find a crap one. There are lots of good, inexpensive options. My High Standard and two Bushmasters ate through all types of ammo accurately and reliably.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

How's bushmaster quality these days?
From what I've seen, better. Windham is making some nice looking rifles using their old tooling and employees.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:10pm
How's bushmaster quality these days?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:35pm
My recommendation?

Step 1: Buy an already assembled Bushmaster M-4.


Step 2: Add enough accessories that you've now negated any weight benefits the M-4 design has to offer.

Step 3: Go to the range and compare your level of tacticool as opposed to the 19 year old next to you. Be sure to point out that your flashlight / flare launcher combo cost more than his optics and snicker smugly

Step 4: Realize that you've bought a grown man's Barbie doll and trade it immediately for an M1A.

Step 5: Tell your wife that the phase is over and she can come back.
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