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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:57am
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Perhaps the real problem that needs to be addressed w/r/t the murder rate is social inequity and a culture of violence led by a worship of the military.

Social inequity is probably the most pronounced factor in crime rates, at least according to sociology.

Worship of the military is a side effect of neoconservatism and I have no idea how that fits in to mass murders.

It promotes violence as the solution to all problems

e: In addition to a fetishization of said violence and lionization of the perpetrators of violence. 


I won't disagree with you on neocons, they're disturbing people. It's important to note that neocons and regular cons are vastly different groups.

As far as fetishization of violence, I think that humanity in general has a fascination with violence that goes back as early as recorded history. You can see this in movies, video games, literature, toys, etc etc. It's likely leftover evolutionary instinct to fight-animals do it from a young age.

I think that fascination with violence is normal, it's when you pair that fascination with a mental illness that is unable to value human life that you develop murderers like this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 3:18am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 
I'm not the only person to bring this up-John McCain was trying to get something similar passed making the sale of saturday night specials (cheap handguns) either illegal are heavily taxed. IIRC it was like under 500 bucks there's a heavy tax penalty.

I think your concepts are in the right direction. I've got ideas that I'm too tired to spell out, but I'll work on posting tomorrow. 

The goal of any gun law we see move forward -- and I do believe we need to see some changes, not because of the shooting sprees, but because of our staggeringly high murder rate




Wait, what?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/mass-killings-up-homicide-rate-down/2012/12/19/3a87b058-4a11-11e2-820e-17eefac2f939_story.html



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 3:18am
Registries won't do squat. Just saying.

There are 270,000,000 guns in the U.S. and not everybody will register. Not only that, law-abiding people who do register their guns will not commit crimes, so you won't find a registered firearm in a homicide.

Explain to me again what a registry will do?


Edited by Rofl_Mao - 21 December 2012 at 3:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 3:21am
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 
I'm not the only person to bring this up-John McCain was trying to get something similar passed making the sale of saturday night specials (cheap handguns) either illegal are heavily taxed. IIRC it was like under 500 bucks there's a heavy tax penalty.

I think your concepts are in the right direction. I've got ideas that I'm too tired to spell out, but I'll work on posting tomorrow. 

The goal of any gun law we see move forward -- and I do believe we need to see some changes, not because of the shooting sprees, but because of our staggeringly high murder rate




Wait, what?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/mass-killings-up-homicide-rate-down/2012/12/19/3a87b058-4a11-11e2-820e-17eefac2f939_story.html





To add to that, here is a site that shows the data fairly easily. Homicides by use of guns are dropping.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 3:27am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Registries won't do squat. Just saying.

There are 270,000,000 guns in the U.S. and not everybody will register. Not only that, law-abiding people who do register their guns will not commit crimes, so you won't find a registered firearm in a homicide.

Explain to me again what a registry will do?

Becaue the idea is FUTURE purchases.
 
Guns are like any other material thing-they degrade over time. Eventually, when a gun has been used in a crime it's either dumped or confiscated and slowly these guns start disappearing.

That's why this argument never held water when it came to banning guns-the whole outlaws will be the only ones with guns thing only works until the guns start either degrading or being confiscated. Eventually, over a span of about half a century or so, you'd see a huge decrease in gun usuage.

Also, I'm pretty sure the idea is that criminals steal their guns from law abiding citizens. So every "illegal" gun can be traced back to a legal purchase at some point in its lifetime.

To add to bad analogies, look at like cars. I'm sure when emissions regulations came out people said pretty similar things,but over time older models are fading out and now we're seeing the impact of cleaner emissions (don't ask me what it is, this is just an analogy )


Edited by stratoaxe - 21 December 2012 at 3:28am
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impulse418 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 3:31am
Degrade over time? You have obviously have never owned a glock.

And the amount of guns that are already buried in PVC pipes and cosmoline, is probably mind boggling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 3:33am
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Also, I'm pretty sure the idea is that criminals steal their guns from law abiding citizens. So every "illegal" gun can be traced back to a legal purchase at some point in its lifetime.


So what if they are traced back?

"Yep it was stolen....." Alrighty then! You caught the criminal! Only you didn't because the gun owner reported it stolen already.

It does not help anything to register the gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 3:38am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Also, I'm pretty sure the idea is that criminals steal their guns from law abiding citizens. So every "illegal" gun can be traced back to a legal purchase at some point in its lifetime.


So what if they are traced back?

"Yep it was stolen....." Alrighty then! You caught the criminal! Only you didn't because the gun owner reported it stolen already.

It does not help anything to register the gun.


Or, " I sold that gun years ago"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 8:34am
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:


Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:



How does taxing guns fix it? Gang members selling stolen guns on the street, or guns smuggled in from Mexico aren't paying for tax stamps. You ony punish those acquiring guns legally.

 
For starters, I'm going to have to Google crime statistics on stolen guns, because while I don't doubt that you're correct I hear the "most crimes are committed with stolen guns" argument thrown around alot and I'm curious as to whether that's correct.
 
But, let's assume you are because I'm sure you're at the very least no far off and let's talk Hi Points.



Googling it will be a huge PITA. Most of the results are numbers posted online are twists from either the pro or anti sides. There is an older FBI report that is one of the better unbiased reports I've seen, but I'll have to dig it up.(it's from 95 or 97, so a little outdated)

If I recall correctly, it didn't come out and say X% of guns used in crimes are stolen, but it gave a couple of numbers people were able to use to deduct it out. I THINK(this post is probably useless because I can't remember it all in enough detail) that the FBI's numbers pointed to the % of stolen guns used in crimes as ranging from 80-98%. I believe the assumed correct range was like 92-94%.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 9:30am
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:


Wait, what?

Simply because our murder rate has decreased from absurd to staggering doesn't mean it isn't staggering compared to the rest of the industrialized world. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 9:41am
Playing the "I rule the world and implemented my concepts" game. 

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

 not everybody will register.

Well then those who didn't can pay the fines associated with not registering within the timeframe. 

Quote Not only that, law-abiding people who do register their guns will not commit crimes, so you won't find a registered firearm in a homicide.
 

Yes, that is the point. People who register their guns will be less likely to use their guns to commit crimes. 

Looking at this in the frame of "Law-abiding" vs. "The criminal" is causing all kinds of issues here. People who are "Law-abiding" decide to become criminals. They make bad decisions. They get desperate. They don't think things through properly. If the existence of a gun license with increased storage laws keeps them from deciding to use a gun for an illicit purpose -- that's what we're shooting for here (No pun intended). 

Example here: Bob is down on his luck. In a lot of debt. Had to take a pay cut down at the ol' factory. Bob's cousin Wilbert, who robs gas stations and occasionally deals coke, offers to buy his handgun for $450 cash without going through the approved channels under the new Agentwhale Gun Registry, which includes a small fee, a waiting period, and filling out paperwork to apply the handgun to the new owner. This looks like a potentially good deal to Bob. Bob, however, knows the gun is registered to him, and knows that if he does sell the gun for cash and the gun is used in a crime, he faces a serious fine jail time. 

Remember: The goal of registry and storage is not to have an immediate change. It's a long-term consequence pairing of legislation that over time works to decrease the number of firearms that are converted from the legal world into the illegal. 


"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 9:50am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

 

"Yep it was stolen....." Alrighty then! You caught the criminal! Only you didn't because the gun owner reported it stolen already.


Was it reported stolen? If yes, then correct. 

It wasn't reported stolen after it was registered? That's a fine and/or jail time. 

Quote
It does not help anything to register the gun.

The goal is volume decreases. Put some manageable roadblocks in the way of purchasing a handgun and those who are dedicated to purchasing one still can and will, but those people are going to be the ones also dedicated to safe and careful gun ownership -most of the time-. We're trying to avoid the guy who buys the cheap handgun on a whim and tosses it in the glove box of his car, only to be grabbed when someone smashes in his window to take his laptop bag, or puts it in the unlocked kitchen drawer in his apartment, only to be grabbed when someone breaks in his house to grab his camera equipment and pain pills. Or, consider the Wilbert/Bob situation. 

The actual license is simply the sidegame here -- the point is for there to be fewer firearms, and for the firearms to actually belong to people dedicated to taking proper and safe care of them. 



"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

The actual license is simply the sidegame here -- the point is for there to be fewer firearms, and for the firearms to actually belong to people dedicated to taking proper and safe care of them.

That's something I think a lot of people on board with. The problem with the proposed legislation is it seeks to ban parts designed for weapon and soldier endurance over weeks of combat (hardly relevant in pretty much all US gun crime) instead of targeting access by criminals in the manner you suggest. It's political nonsense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 12:58pm
That is the route they've taken here. Registered, licensed guns with loads of regulations, back ground checks, interviews, needing reasons to own them.

All it does is hamper legal owners. It does NOTHING to stop criminals getting guns. Many are taken from .mil and LEO, often costing the LEO's their lives. 700 have been taken from LEO's in various methods this year alone.

Ironically enough, as a registered shooter there is no practical limit on the number of weapons I can buy now. For example IDPA.
SSG, ESG, CDP, SSR and ESR - 5 guns right there. And because I'm dedicated, I need to able to shoot in a competition no matter what, so if my gun goes down I need a spare. So that's 10 one for each class.

Then we have Stock center fire rifle, Enhanced center fire, stock rimfire, enhanced rimfire, stock shotgun, enhanced shotgun, stock semi auto shotgun, enhanced semi auto shotgun, stock manual rifle (lever/pump) and enhanced manual rifle. That's another 10. And because I'm dedicated, that's 20.

So with one sport I can "justify" 30 firearms.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:16pm
More guns means more morons with guns: http://www.kgw.com/home/Loaded-gun-found-in-Tillamook-movie-theater-184156101.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

That's something I think a lot of people on board with. 

Just not the NRA, which still controls a lot of voice through lobbying. 

The NRA exists to get people to buy more guns. That's it. Any legislation that stands in the way of American firearm companies making less money is going to get squashed by the NRA's voice. It's the reason why the only real gun control law that has come about in the past few decades has been a half-assed AWB that didn't really do much of anything. 

Decreasing volume will increase safety, but not make anyone any money, so the NRA will unrelentingly disapprove. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

 All it does is hamper legal owners.
 

It doesn't appear to have hampered you? 

Quote It does NOTHING to stop criminals getting guns.
 

The dynamic of crime, firearms, approaches to law, society, socio-economic strata, etc., is really rather different between the U.S. and South Africa. 

"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 4:40pm
Well I've been waiting two years for my Saiga, four months for my 15-22, four months on my Colt .22....... I've had over R2400 in lawyers fees this year alone just in writing applications. To keep my registered status I need to belong to registered clubs and registered shooting sport bodies. (R800) per year. I need to shoot a government required number of times per year.

Tell me again how I have not been hampered? Yet you can still buy illegal guns in about an hour.

I know they are different. I was using it as proof that laws don't prevent anything. Criminals can get what they want. I didn't mention the guns coming in from Mozambique or Zimbabwe did I?

If your cops and soldiers have guns the bad guys can still get them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 5:34pm
"The bad guys" in most cases are irate family members acting in the heat of the moment with the tools at hand, which in the most unfortunate cases, are guns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

Well I've been waiting two years for my Saiga, four months for my 15-22, four months on my Colt .22....... I've had over R2400 in lawyers fees this year alone just in writing applications. To keep my registered status I need to belong to registered clubs and registered shooting sport bodies. (R800) per year. I need to shoot a government required number of times per year.
 

So your hampering is a wait and about $300? 

tinyviolin.jpg 

Quote I know they are different. I was using it as proof that laws don't prevent anything. Criminals can get what they want.
 

The idea that criminals exist therefore laws don't work is something you're a big fan of repeating, despite the inherent legal and philosophical fallacies inherent. 


"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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