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usafpilot07 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by rednekk rednekk wrote:

Gun ownership is still a right protected by the constitution. What about the first amendment? Mentally ill people hear the history channel ranting about the Mayan apocalypse and kill themselves. I'm not sure our rights should be dictated by the most evil and insane members of society, but I am willing to make sure they have limited access to items that pose potential public danger. 


This is the exact point I was trying to make.

Freedom of speech is an absolutely dangerous right. How many revolutions and deaths are started by a single person's persuasion?

The point is you control guns in the sane way you do speech-with limits.

But one needs to at least have a working knowledge of something to regulate it. The AWB will ignore the guns predominately used for murder in our country-cheap handguns.

Want to cut crime without touching the Constitution? Tax the crap out of guns.


How does taxing guns fix it? Gang members selling stolen guns on the street, or guns smuggled in from Mexico aren't paying for tax stamps. You ony punish those acquiring guns legally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 6:57pm
I really don't think we want to take the UK route and also have strict knife laws, cops without guns, no pint glasses in bars, cameras everywhere and soccer. They still have horrific mass shootings where the shooter uses a double-barreled shotgun and a .22 to shoot 20-something people. But obviously, when available, these guys choose these weapons (VA tech aside) a bit more often than others.

Saying "let's take criminal shootings out of the statistics" is IMO, almost the opposite of what we should do. I'd like to reduce gun deaths, and make criminals less deadly, even if they're mostly shooting each other. 20 or more people get shot every day, and that's a lot more statistically relevant than the couple of mass killings that happen. Go figure that the majority of these guns come from friends or family, or are stolen. Safe storage and expanded background checks would go a long way to reducing this stream of firearms to criminals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadeye007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

The people have initial responded to the shooting in Connecticut by rushing out and buying firearms just in case are not people I really want to be friends with, or really associate with. 


So people who bought Hostess Twinkies when word of their demise spread are crazy for trying to get one more box before they are gone?

I don't see how buying an AR, AR lower, or 30 round magazine at this time is so detestable that you don't want to associate with someone that has. It is common knowledge that the government is going to make some sort of feel good law after this shooting, and there is a good chance it will resemble the Brady bill. If that happens prices will skyrocket and who knows what will happen to availability. Why not make hay when the sun shines?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 11:35pm
I was unaware that 20 schoolchildren were cut down in their classrooms when Hostess shut down. 


"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Gang members selling stolen guns on the street,

Where are those stolen guns starting off? 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:


Why?

It strikes me as, I'm not sure of the right word, but insensitive maybe? I've been trying to find the words to describe my thought on the whole thing, but I've not come up with the right ones, perhaps. 

"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 11:59pm
Whale: What is your view on the Patriot Act?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 1:17am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

I was unaware that 20 schoolchildren were cut down in their classrooms when Hostess shut down. 




Debatable. How many diabetics have had their start or end from Twinkies? How many over weight people have had Twinkies as a contributing factor?

There are plenty more legitimate users of "assault rifles" than there are crazies shooting up schools.

The rights of the law abiding are being decided by the acts of the lawbreakers.

That makes perfect sense.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 1:21am
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

 
There are plenty more legitimate users of "assault rifles" than there are crazies shooting up schools.

I'm not arguing against that. 

Quote The rights of the law abiding are being decided by the acts of the lawbreakers.
 

That's every law ever. 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 21 December 2012 at 1:24am
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:29am
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:



How does taxing guns fix it? Gang members selling stolen guns on the street, or guns smuggled in from Mexico aren't paying for tax stamps. You ony punish those acquiring guns legally.
 
For starters, I'm going to have to Google crime statistics on stolen guns, because while I don't doubt that you're correct I hear the "most crimes are committed with stolen guns" argument thrown around alot and I'm curious as to whether that's correct.
 
But, let's assume you are because I'm sure you're at the very least no far off and let's talk Hi Points.

There are, in my opinion, three types of people that buy Hi Points:

1:) Someone who knows next to nothing about guns
 
2:) Someone who can't afford anything better
 
3:) Someone who needs a gun right now
 
So waiting periods take care of number 3 sort of (I've never been subject to one so I'm not sure how that system works.) But then you've got 1 and 2.
 
1 is dangerous in their own right because a person who doesn't know much about guns is more likely to leave it laying around where it can be taken.
 
2 is very likely to live in a poverty stricken neighborhood where crime is high anyway so the chances of it being stolen and used to bust a cap off in a 7/11 owner are almost astronomically higher than elsewhere.
 
Whale is correct in the assertion that I'm trying to make here-the guns being stolen are being stolen from somewhere.

Look, here's my thing. Please, gun nuts (I'm looking at you guys Tallen and Kay ) I'm not starting an argument on the merit of Hi Points. I'm using them as a hypothetical saturday night specal in the classic vein of .32's that were bought strictly for close range murder. A gun that you pay alot for is a gun that you're going to value far more than some crap you bought for a hundred bucks at a pawn shop.

I'm not the only person to bring this up-John McCain was trying to get something similar passed making the sale of saturday night specials (cheap handguns) either illegal are heavily taxed. IIRC it was like under 500 bucks there's a heavy tax penalty.

I'm also not suggesting that my ideas are going to fix anything or that they're an end all to the problem. Personally, I like the idea of just enforcing the laws on the books. But if something has to be done, the AWB amounts to little more than an ineffective, easy target for gun control advocates and is, in my opinion, just a politician's way of saying "Look at me, I did something about the gun problem in America!"

I could be wrong, but it's how I see it.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:33am
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Forget half-measures, I don't think civilians should be able to own guns. There's no reason to own a murder tool other than hunting or target shooting, and those are just hobbies.

You know, I'm glad you're around here now. Not because I think you're correct, but because people will hopefully stop thinking that the views I carry are anything that could actually be considered liberal. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:38am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:


Why?

It strikes me as, I'm not sure of the right word, but insensitive maybe? I've been trying to find the words to describe my thought on the whole thing, but I've not come up with the right ones, perhaps. 


I don't guess I understand you on this one, Whale.

Don't get me wrong-I don't buy in to mass purchasing hysteria of any kind. If I wasn't in the market for an AR before this I obviously didn't have a need for it now.

But I don't see where sensitivity comes in to play. We all feel heartbroken that these children were killed, but I don't see why buying a gun makes you heartless to that detail. Life goes on post-tragedy and if you're a gun collector then this might be your last chance to own an important part of hobby gun history. AR-15's are to gun culture what 68 Camaros are to car people-it's the gun young nuts dream about and grown men put ungodly amounts of money in to.

The twinkie analogy is, from a supply and demand perspective, spot on.

Obviously there are the douchebags on Facebook (mine included) that immediately start some "from my cold dead hands" rant about how guns would have saved all the children but as far as the national political scene I saw alot of respect and silence from groups such as the NRA.

Not so much from ignorant news anchors trying to be the first to call the gun control debate, but that's the nature of the beast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:40am
 
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:


There are plenty more legitimate users of "assault rifles" than there are crazies shooting up schools.

KBK

Really. What, pray tell, are they using them for?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:43am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Forget half-measures, I don't think civilians should be able to own guns. There's no reason to own a murder tool other than hunting or target shooting, and those are just hobbies.

You know, I'm glad you're around here now. Not because I think you're correct, but because people will hopefully stop thinking that the views I carry are anything that could actually be considered liberal. 
The US's "liberal" is most of the worlds' moderate conservative. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:44am
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 
I'm not the only person to bring this up-John McCain was trying to get something similar passed making the sale of saturday night specials (cheap handguns) either illegal are heavily taxed. IIRC it was like under 500 bucks there's a heavy tax penalty.

I think your concepts are in the right direction. I've got ideas that I'm too tired to spell out, but I'll work on posting tomorrow. 

The goal of any gun law we see move forward -- and I do believe we need to see some changes, not because of the shooting sprees, but because of our staggeringly high murder rate -- needs to be to keep guns from getting to criminals. That means, for one, better written and more-enforced storage laws so that burglaries don't end in firearms becoming illegal. That means increasing official unwanted firearm disposal programs. It means, in my opinion, banning keeping handguns in unattended vehicles. 

For two, I think it involves licensing and approval for sales and trades of handguns, with stricter penalty for possessing an unlicensed handgun. 

Putting manageable barriers in the way of handgun ownership won't stop someone who wishes to purchase a firearm for defense, just like CCW licensing has not stopped people from signing up for them. What it would do is decrease the volume of handguns that end up becoming criminal weapons through underhanded sale and theft by simply decreasing the actual volume. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:46am
Perhaps the real problem that needs to be addressed w/r/t the murder rate is social inequity and a culture of violence led by a worship of the military.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:50am
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

I don't guess I understand you on this one, Whale.
 

It's ok, I don't understand me really either. 

Quote But I don't see where sensitivity comes in to play. We all feel heartbroken that these children were killed, but I don't see why buying a gun makes you heartless to that detail.

It was a particular thing I'm basing this off of. Two days after the shooting, the local news here showed lines at various gun shops where people were lining up out the door to buy various assault rifle related things.

Hardly even 48 hours had passed since 20 children were gun down in their elementary school, and the first instinct is to stock up just incase something gets banned? Just doesn't sit very well with me. 

If the same story was tonight, it probably wouldn't have sat so uncomfortably, but this was two days after. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:50am
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Perhaps the real problem that needs to be addressed w/r/t the murder rate is social inequity and a culture of violence led by a worship of the military.

Social inequity is probably the most pronounced factor in crime rates, at least according to sociology.

Worship of the military is a side effect of neoconservatism and I have no idea how that fits in to mass murders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:52am
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Perhaps the real problem that needs to be addressed w/r/t the murder rate is social inequity and a culture of violence led by a worship of the military.

Social inequity is probably the most pronounced factor in crime rates, at least according to sociology.

Worship of the military is a side effect of neoconservatism and I have no idea how that fits in to mass murders.

It promotes violence as the solution to all problems

e: In addition to a fetishization of said violence and lionization of the perpetrators of violence. 



Edited by BARREL BREAK - 21 December 2012 at 2:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2012 at 2:52am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:


Hardly even 48 hours had passed since 20 children were gun down in their elementary school, and the first instinct is to stock up just incase something gets banned? Just doesn't sit very well with me. 
 

I see what you're saying as far as image, though I'm not sure self centered knee jerk reactions are terribly against the grain in human culture.
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