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tallen702 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Forget half-measures, I don't think civilians should be able to own guns. There's no reason to own a murder tool other than hunting or target shooting, and those are just hobbies.



More people are killed by drunk drivers every year than are killed by firearms homicides. I don't think civilians should be allowed to drink. There's no reason to own a controlled substance other than to get drunk, and that's bad for you anyway.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 4:10pm
Nothing brings about a flood of poorly constructed analogies like a gun control debate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 4:13pm
Self-defense comes to mind, and before you claim that that would be unnecessary if people didn't have guns, simple body size differences, improvised or other weapons, or multiple attackers make that argument moot. BTW several state constitutions declare hunting and fishing a right and mandate land preservation to protect said right. It's about the closest thing I've seen to saying the government has a responsibility to provide people with access to food in a constitution.

The assault weapon ban seems knee-jerk, and hysterical (not the funny way). Simultaneously too much and not enough, considering the proposed ban is  more strict than the current federal controls on machine guns. Hypothetically a paranoid schizophrenic, off his meds, who had been institutionallized for a few weeks, has served probation for threats of violence against random strangers he accused of people pod-people alien invaders, who is on a terror watch list, is allowed to legally purchase an AR, and wouldn't show up on the NICS. Ban assault weapons, and he can still buy the next best thing. A new AWB might even be necessary, but it's pretty immoral and stupid to ignore that nuts would still be able to buy guns, and to defend against the 1-in-100 million mass-murders when we're running 10k homicides a year and are horribly inadequate at making sure even predictable criminals don't get guns.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#politics  It's a lengthy read, but it has a lot of good info. Apparently it's even pretty easy to get a gun and have a background check using a fake ID. Of course, when I buy a gun I have to submit biometric data or use a PIN, and think I can randomly be required to do that for ammunition sales. It really might be time for a national license.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

It really might be time for a national license.

This, and storage laws, are the only two things that will actually make any kind of impact and carry any kind of common sense when dealing with new gun laws. 

AWBs are silly. All-out bans are an NRA fantasy. There is already background checks and waiting periods. CCW has no real impact on crime up or down. 

A registry/license makes the most sense for preventing actually statistically significant gun crime -- acts committed with illegally obtained handguns.
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rednekk98 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

It really might be time for a national license.

This, and storage laws, are the only two things that will actually make any kind of impact and carry any kind of common sense when dealing with new gun laws. 

AWBs are silly. All-out bans are an NRA fantasy. There is already background checks and waiting periods. CCW has no real impact on crime up or down. 

A registry/license makes the most sense for preventing actually statistically significant gun crime -- acts committed with illegally obtained handguns.
And we are now in agreement solidly. If you made for a few different classes of licensing, you might even be able to sell the gun nuts with a national CCW permit. Classify ARs and handguns similarly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 4:27pm
We need national ID cards, for everyone. GPS technology is cheap enough and small enough. Caught without it, should result in a stiff penalty. All felons should be chipped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

We need national ID cards, for everyone. GPS technology is cheap enough and small enough. Caught without it, should result in a stiff penalty. All felons should be chipped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 5:01pm
My problem with gun control arguments from the left is that they tend to view the 2nd amendment as expendable because it doesn't fit their worldview. I think that, guns themselves aside, this is a dangerous way to view the Constitution.

I think my other issue is that both sides argue this issue wrong. It doesn't matter WHY civilians NEED guns....it's a constitutional right. When you find yourself trying to justify your rights you've already put yourself on the defensive.

I think that gun owners are frustrated because we're having our rights dictated to us by people who have no idea what they're talking about. Phrases like "Americans don't need weapons that fire 30 rounds at once" bring to mind the old standby criticism of old white Republican men telling women how to use their bodies.

I don't want some politician who hears "AR-15" and thinks "minigun" writing my gun regulations. It's maddening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 5:04pm

 

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Phrases like "Americans don't need weapons that fire 30 rounds at once" bring to mind the old standby criticism of old white Republican men telling women how to use their bodies.
What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

 

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Phrases like "Americans don't need weapons that fire 30 rounds at once" bring to mind the old standby criticism of old white Republican men telling women how to use their bodies.
What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say.

Well, if vaginas automatically fight rape and pregnancy from it, there's no need for wimmin to have guns because they're concerned about rape.


Edited by rednekk98 - 20 December 2012 at 5:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Forget half-measures, I don't think civilians should be able to own guns. There's no reason to own a murder tool other than hunting or target shooting, and those are just hobbies.



More people are killed by drunk drivers every year than are killed by firearms homicides. I don't think civilians should be allowed to drink. There's no reason to own a controlled substance other than to get drunk, and that's bad for you anyway.

Well, to be honest, alcohol is one of the worst drugs out there in terms of potential for abuse, addiction, violence, and lethality, and it probably should be illegal if our drug policy had any coherency at all (it doesn't).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 5:36pm
Not sure why the government should get to have an itemized list of everything I buy because of a mentally ill sociopath shot up a school.

That nutcase in China did how much damage to children with a knife? Should we make people register with the federal government before buying steak knives too?

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

The people have initial responded to the shooting in Connecticut by rushing out and buying firearms just in case are not people I really want to be friends with, or really associate with. 


Why? It's pretty much agreed upon that there is about to be a poorly thought out, unfairly restrictive knee-jerk response implemented. Why shouldn't law abiding citizens make their purchases before the government punishes them for something they didn't do?

Edited by usafpilot07 - 20 December 2012 at 5:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Forget half-measures, I don't think civilians should be able to own guns. There's no reason to own a murder tool other than hunting or target shooting, and those are just hobbies.

Not once in the Constitution are the words "hunting", "sporting" or "hobby" ever uttered, let alone in the 2nd amendment. It's getting quite old when antis bring up the 'no sporting purpose' thing.



Also, the deaths by firearms needs to be adjusted. How many of those killed are criminals themselves? DC and Chicago more than do their part at skewing the stats thanks to their ridiculous homicide rates due to gangs... especially considering their gun laws are so strict.



If we required people to obtain a license or permit to practice religion, or to write a news article or a blog, people would be up in arms. Why is gun ownership any different? That's why I'm against a national registry. (And before someone says 'because guns are dangerous'... think about the sheer amount of conflict started by religion or someone saying something that another didn't like.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 6:13pm
None of the kids in China were killed (this time) and center fire rifle rounds are exceptionally freaking lethal. If a psycho uses a knife instead of a gun, he's going to be a less effective killing machine.

These people are clearly killing machines, the guy apparently was insensitive to emotional or even physical pain. I've run into a few people who are incapable of feeling physical pain, and that seriously changes a big part of the equation as far as restraining them goes. This kid could have had his arm shattered and could still have been focused enough to try to stab someone with the shards. He was some sort of abhorrent mutant, and while results of this investigation are a long ways out, from the reports he was left alone for days with unsecured firearms, several of which were illegal for him to possess (handguns, possibly the rifle, not sure on how CTs AR laws work), and probably had an inclination that his mother was trying to have him removed from the house. It would be interesting to know what his altercation at the school was about the day before, but it sounds like most of the people who would know are dead. This guy, like almost all of the others, used firearms that they should not have been allowed to access. This guy was too young to have a handgun and possibly the rifle, the guy in Oregon "stole" his rifle from a friend (probably a straw buy, no background check) the VA Tech guy was crazy, and the CO guy was crazy and threatening, and these guys didn't end up in the system. The theater shooter's threats against a counselor are probably not even going to be admissible in court due to HIPPA. There are no effective ways to get these people listed as prohibited possessors, when they do pop up on the radar it often isn't reported to NICS, and the only way to get them help against their will is wait until they can be jailed for something.

Gun ownership is still a right protected by the constitution. What about the first amendment? Mentally ill people hear the history channel ranting about the Mayan apocalypse and kill themselves. I'm not sure our rights should be dictated by the most evil and insane members of society, but I am willing to make sure they have limited access to items that pose potential public danger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Forget half-measures, I don't think civilians should be able to own guns. There's no reason to own a murder tool other than hunting or target shooting, and those are just hobbies.



More people are killed by drunk drivers every year than are killed by firearms homicides. I don't think civilians should be allowed to drink. There's no reason to own a controlled substance other than to get drunk, and that's bad for you anyway.


Tallen, I love you. You know I do. I also love guns. I've got several.

If I hear another comparison to driving, I will pull my hair, and the hair of anyone within arm's reach, right out. No matter how much thought I put into it, I cannot make the comparison...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 6:22pm
Phone won't let me edit : that applies to drinking too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 6:23pm
Drunk driving is a crime. Drunk driving kills innocent people.

Cars are also used in the commission of crimes nonalcohol related, but that doesn't matter because the antis have cars.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

 

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Phrases like "Americans don't need weapons that fire 30 rounds at once" bring to mind the old standby criticism of old white Republican men telling women how to use their bodies.
What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say.



Why? Both are groups completely ignorant of the subject of their lawmaking.

If you're going to regulate something you should at least have knowledge of it.

Edited by stratoaxe - 20 December 2012 at 6:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 6:33pm
I can't believe people who are bent on mass murder, go to the extremes to get guns. When there are plenty easy to get, lethal alternatives.

So little Johnny Ihatemylife walks into Wal-Mart, Toys R Us etc. Buys one of these.




Goes to a gas station. Fills this sucker up with some gas. And walks into a school, sprays every kid in the class room, then sparks it.

He obtained two things that have zero age restriction. Zero back round checks. And if the victims DO survive, they will be in way worse shape, than someone who got shot.

It's just like the security at airports. Do you really think terrorists would use planes again, or pick an easier means, that is being over looked.


Edited by impulse418 - 20 December 2012 at 6:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2012 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by rednekk rednekk wrote:

Gun ownership is still a right protected by the constitution. What about the first amendment? Mentally ill people hear the history channel ranting about the Mayan apocalypse and kill themselves. I'm not sure our rights should be dictated by the most evil and insane members of society, but I am willing to make sure they have limited access to items that pose potential public danger. 


This is the exact point I was trying to make.

Freedom of speech is an absolutely dangerous right. How many revolutions and deaths are started by a single person's persuasion?

The point is you control guns in the sane way you do speech-with limits.

But one needs to at least have a working knowledge of something to regulate it. The AWB will ignore the guns predominately used for murder in our country-cheap handguns.

Want to cut crime without touching the Constitution? Tax the crap out of guns.
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