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Elementary School Shooting

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impulse418 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:27pm
6 billion? We spend that in less than two days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 1:54pm
I'm sure there will be hold outs. I'm quite convinced there will need to be a shuffle around of personnel and the like.

But imagine if a school did institute armed, trained teachers. I'm willing to bet the next school shooting would not be at it.

If some of the bunny huggers need to leave, so be it. If some families pull their kids out, so what? There are police forces that went from unarmed to armed with the same attrition. Your "force" will be stronger for those that have left.

We hand our kids over to a bunch of people to look after their well being for up to 8 hours a day. The teachers should nut up and admit that they are there to look after them, come hell or high water.

Teachers have to attend first aid and other courses before they are allowed to look after kids. Add how to strip and maintain a 9x19mm and how to run a failure drill. Those that can't hack it can go teach in California or New York.

Everyone is saying how one of the dead teachers is a hero because she hid her kids in closets and then when confronted by the shooter told them they were at gym. He then killed her. If she'd planted two in his face the ordeal would have been over much quicker with less loss of life.

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Edited by Kayback - 17 December 2012 at 2:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Forcing teachers into weapons training is a bad enough idea, but you're still going to have teachers quit their positions if they thought for a second that any of their fellow teachers were carrying.

That's what I meant by confidential. But then I see the flaw in my argument. If even just the superintendents and armed teachers know, word of armed teachers would be national news the next day.

I'm starting to lean towards Kayback's opinion. Who cares about the attrition? Teachers will still remain, parents will still send children to school or homeschool them, all because of necessity. A teacher strike, however, could result, and that helps nobody.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 2:26pm
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Active-shooters-in-schools-The-enemy-is-denial/

This is a pretty good take on things. You don't ban matches, you face up to things take precautions.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Fighting on school grounds, should result in expulsion. If they want to fight indoors, they can wait till they get to prison.


Some kids are the victim. They would be expelled for defending themselves. Is that what you want?
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impulse418 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Fighting on school grounds, should result in expulsion. If they want to fight indoors, they can wait till they get to prison.


Some kids are the victim. They would be expelled for defending themselves. Is that what you want?


Nope, as long as both parties didn't agree to the fight before it began. Then the aggressor goes away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Fighting on school grounds, should result in expulsion. If they want to fight indoors, they can wait till they get to prison.


Some kids are the victim. They would be expelled for defending themselves. Is that what you want?


Nope, as long as both parties didn't agree to the fight before it began. Then the aggressor goes away.


I wish it were that way. Sadly, no-tolerance policies today make it so both the victim and the aggressor are treated with the same punishment.
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impulse418 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:54pm
I know what the current policy is, was just stating how it should be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:55am
I do have a fairly big problem with "zero tolerance" policy for violence in schools that treat any violent act, regardless of severity or motivation, as equally unethical. We can't expect every kid to be mini-ghandi. Once a kid gets the idea that if he gets into any type of altercation that it will be interpreted in the worst possible light, they will be as violent as possible. I know there's no such thing as a fair fight, but if someone shoves you and walks past, you should expect worse punishment if you smash him upside the head with a skateboard while he's walking away. This is not something I think many in education, or many policies understand.

To follow up on the last, education is seriously female-dominated, violent offenders are predominately male. I can remember one of the few cases in high school when I got into a physical confrontation and could easily have been suspended or worse. It was between me and a good friend of mine over a chess game (of all things). The two of us simply escalated to a point where there was no way not to lose face without throwing a punch. We managed to have a discussion in the hallway and return to class without a record, in other cases it would have been multiday suspension, possible involvement with law-enforcement, calling of parents and potential lawsuits etc.

Too many people are so dead set on having an ideal world that they want zero-tolerance, no guns, nuclear disarmament that they won't accept a better world of arms reduction, more fair fights, or monitoring of gun access.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:22am
I was trying to think of a solution, looks like we haven't found one.

I get it, kids fight in school. Come to think of it, I never got in a fight after grade school. Strange... Any who.

Obviously, zero tolerance policies haven't worked. Gun free zones haven't worked. Gun control hasn't worked.

What haven't we tried yet?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:35am
Some gun control has largely  worked. How many machine gun are used in crimes, especially those that are legally owned? How many SBRs or shotguns are?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:03am
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

Some gun control has largely  worked. How many machine gun are used in crimes, especially those that are legally owned? How many SBRs or shotguns are?


I honestly believe the only reason the NFA was enacted, was so the prohibition agents didn't lose their jobs. Hence the ATF was created. Just like the prohbies, they were first tax revenue agents. And slowly turned into what they are today.

I think the criminals of today, realized along with the military, to make every shot count. Criminals can obtain machine guns, but honestly why bother.

It's not hard to cut down a rifle or shotgun. And many of them are.

Criminals prefer handguns over them all. Cheaper and more concealable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 10:04am
I can forsee some repricussions over this across the nation. The need to feel like we are doing something to prevent this has to be satiated, it's in our nature. In truth, short of building schools like prisons with bulletproof glass, playgrounds within 10 foot walls, loading/unloading zones within impenetrable barriers, armed guards etc. there is no way to make schools truly 100% safe. Much to do is being made about all of this, but go to most schools and a determined person could find multiple times/ways to do harm. Discussions were made locally about locking down the entire school all day long and setting it up that people have to be buzzed in. The practicality of this is questionable. There are dozens and on some days hundreds of people coming in and out of the school during session. From volunteers and delivery people, to parents coming in to help with class parties or simply to eat lunch with their kids. It would take a nearly full time person to screen and buzz in every single person. But even if this were to take place, you still have 2 hours or so in the morning and afternoon where you have kids unloading and loading onto school busses. The playground is full of screaming ankle biters from about 9am on for recess. On the other side of the school, during decent weather, there are gym classes playing soccer or flag football or whatever. Honestly, it sucks to say but schools are pretty much "target rich" environments. They are filled nearly the entire day with helpless kids who may or may not know to run away from strangers and/or determine when there is or isn't a threat of danger. They are also mostly defenseless. Unless we want to turn our schools into virtual prisons, there is little that can be truly done. And even if it is instituted,  what do you do about the kids that walk home from school? I know when I was in school, it was like ants leaving the mound when that bell rang.
 
And if as a society we did decide to go down this path and build our schools to be like prisons forcing our kids to play in walled courtyards or simply making them stay inside hiding from the outside world, is this truly how we want our kids to see the world? I think as it is, we have done irrepairable harm to a couple of generations in making them feel like they are always under siege from evildoers. In the grand scheme of things very few kids are killed by gun toting assailants, as are very few ever actually abducted and killed. Part of the problem is that we have become obsessed with stories about how the boogie man is out to get us all and we need to cower down under our beds and hide. It's sad really, but I think its time for a change. Lets start teaching our kids to be fighters, not hiders. Instead of making them afraid of the world around them, lets teach them how to defend themselves and take control of the situation. Most of these types of assailants are cowards and when confronted, do the world a favor and off themselves, much like bullies back down when stood up to. Lets start raising heroes again.  
 


Edited by oldpbnoob - 18 December 2012 at 10:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 10:24am
Here's what we'll see happen.

There will be a heightened security presence through the end of the (school) year and into next. Then municipalities won't have the money to keep the extra SROs or beat cops tied up around schools that are quiet, and will pull the resources for use elsewhere.

You'll see some form of firearms regulation passed in the spring. It'll be watered down and do nothing to prevent firearms from getting into the hands of those who shouldn't because the people writing the laws will have no idea what makes one weapon "more deadly" than another. In the mean time, you'll see a run on all self-loading firearms with the ability to accept a detachable magazine and SKSs. Whatever bans are put in place won't make it through congress without a sunset provision. What's more, if BHO attempts to executive order his way to a ban of any sort, it'll be immediately slapped with a federal injunction and the challenge will go before SCOTUS and the ex-or will be shot down in the interest of maintaining checks and balances if nothing else.

You will see a slight increase in 01-FFL and 03-FFL applications from people who have figured out that it's better to have a firearms license and not have to deal with NICS and various state laws which don't pertain to FFLs.

You will not see any "no grandfather" clauses make it into any passable legislation because it's not only impractical, but impossible to get people to turn over their magazines and firearms. No police officer in their right mind would ever go to the door of someone suspected of having an assault rifle and mags and tell them to hand them over. And in instances where they would forcibly attempt to, you'd see a lot of shootings and dead police and civilians because of it. If you send in the military to do so, you're going to incite a civil uprising and turn the nation against the government.

My suggestion is to see what common-sense suggestions are out there and support them by writing your senators and congressmen. Action WILL happen, people will lose their jobs if they don't do something but it needs to be sensible, and you know congress isn't capable of that without outside help.

Here are my suggestions, you can adopt or modify them as necessary to fit your views when writing your representatives:

Open the NICS system to individuals for face to face transfers. Something I'd like to have which would shut up the "gunshow loophole" morons out there. Allow the FBI to charge $5/xfer to supplement the cost of additional people to run checks.

Limit future magazine capacity to 20 rounds. This was military standard for some time and is more than enough for civilian purposes or to hold any invading chicoms at bay to allow your buddy to reload.

Require all self-loading firearms and handguns in the US to come with an integrated locking system (a lot of pistols do anymore)

Require a firearms safety education class for all teenagers in the public school system. Get the NRA to back this and have them volunteer to work hand-in-hand with the FBI or BATFE to produce a quality class (not just a video) which teaches the basics of firearms safety so that kids don't accidentally shoot themselves or others if they come across a weapon

Require all certified mental health professionals (psychologists and psychiatrists, not "counselors") to notify the state LEA of any individual they feel is a threat to themselves or others. Don't necessarily tie it to the NICS, but at least it gives the police credible and professional backing to follow up on any cases where someone is reported to be a potential threat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 10:40am
I don't want to be on duty in a uniform on the day a piece of legislation gets passed that says people have to turn weapons over to the government. 

Not saying that anything like that has a snowball's chance of passing in the very near future, but I have a feeling that would be the spark that started a wildfire. Tallen's right, there'd be a lot of dead cops following something like that.  Look at the patriot movement right now, they almost always view LEO as the face of the government they are resisting, while ignoring that many on those forces are farther to the right than many as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 10:41am
I'm always torn on the "assault weapon ban" issue. While I really don't feel that there is truly a need for Joe Civilian to have an AK47 or AR15 with 20 round magazines loaded with hollow points, I am not 100% comfortable with disarming what may be a necessary militia if things ever go pear sharped . Hard to weigh things like this sometimes. Part of the problem I have is that IMO, a lot of the people that gravitate towards owning these types of firearms may tend to be a bit on the fringe as it is.

Edited by oldpbnoob - 18 December 2012 at 10:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:08am
I think the civilian disarmament issue speaks volumes to the power of the people vs the power of the government. Trying to take away firearms would be unconstitutional as it goes against 2A. The government can't effectively enforce it as owners will resist. It's in our nature as Americans to deny the government the ability to infringe upon our rights guaranteed by the constitution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:16am
But its the same argument over and over. Where do you draw the line? Yes, there is the right to bear arms, but nowhere does it say that its your right to own something capable of wonton savagery. Fully automatic weapons are forbidden to civilian populations as are I am guessing rocket launchers, live grenades, etc. Tough call at times.

Edited by oldpbnoob - 18 December 2012 at 11:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

Some gun control has largely  worked. How many machine gun are used in crimes, especially those that are legally owned? How many SBRs or shotguns are?


Uh, lots of illegally converted machine guns are used every year. There has only been 1 instance of a homicide committed with a legally owned fully automatic weapon since 1986 and that was a police officer who was nutso.

In 2009 alone, there were multiple cases and 3 illegal machine guns recovered by the state of California.

Sawn-off shotguns are regularly tied to murders and other crimes, SBRs, not so much.

The reality is that criminals don't care. Gun control laws haven't made it harder to prevent criminals from getting full-auto. Changes in manufacturing have done more for that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:57pm
I like what OPB had to say.

Tallen: Don't you think gun training should start earlier than teenagers. Such as grade school. When kids are the most curious, and not the most intelligent.
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