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Elementary School Shooting

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 7:30am
I know for sure that the answer is NOT arming teachers.

For one, a large number of people going into education these days are people that argue for stricter gun control laws or the banning of such altogether. One of my good college friends is a teacher in Georgia, and her facebook page is littered with "Gun Free America" links, and calls to eradicate them from everywhere.

Any state that would suggest arming teachers would lose quality educators by the score based on their political proclivities towards guns.

That being said, I don't know what the answer IS...but that isn't it.

To suggest this is about as ludicrous in my book as disarming the private citizen is.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 11:06am
As a teacher with an LTC, I wouldn't want to have a gun in a classroom. It's tough enough to get kids to trust you without giving them the impression that their teacher thinks there's a significant risk one of them is a homicidal maniac and is ready to kill any of them at a second's notice. While I think today's safety measures in schools have proved necessary, kids hate being treated like prisoners enough as it is. For the better part of a decade, students at my old high school have been required to wear their ID badges. Teenagers being what they are, forget them all the time or simply refuse to wear them, or even try to stage protests with passive resistance. I've had to explain more than once that in the event of an emergency, they don't want to be the knucklehead that police are wasting time trying to ID when they should be focused on saving people's lives, and that they keep an extra copy of their ID in their locker and try to organize themselves if it's so difficult to remember something like an ID.

I'm still waiting for some idiot with a pitbull to tell me nobody should have a pistol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:



I'm still waiting for some idiot with a pitbull to tell me nobody should have a pistol.


Minus the pitbull, I've been told 2 or 3 times already that there's no reason for private citizens to own pistols.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 3:54pm
The knee jerk, just tell them as I do, OK we don't need pistols, try carrying a 'cop' other than that enjoy being 'the victim' since it takes you the cop how long to repond.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 5:21pm
Interesting how the mall shooter killed himself last week as soon as a conceal carry guy confronted him... 

And the media ignored that fact. As CCW stopping violence isn't convenient to the anti gun media. 

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 7:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 8:22pm
If it's the story I think it is, a ccw carrier got the people he was with behind cover and pulled his weapon while the shooter's gun jammed.  He chose not to shoot because there were people behind the shooter.  The kid then ran off to the staircase, kept trying to unjam his rifle and then offed himself.  

I feel like the kid was going to commit suicide whether or not there was a shopper with a weapon confront him, and it wasn't like he immediately saw the guy with the gun and turned the gun on himself... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by procarbinefreak procarbinefreak wrote:

If it's the story I think it is, a ccw carrier got the people he was with behind cover and pulled his weapon while the shooter's gun jammed.  He chose not to shoot because there were people behind the shooter.  The kid then ran off to the staircase, kept trying to unjam his rifle and then offed himself.  

I feel like the kid was going to commit suicide whether or not there was a shopper with a weapon confront him, and it wasn't like he immediately saw the guy with the gun and turned the gun on himself... 


Both versions of the story were posted on my news feed this morning, I thought it was interesting how the details of the story varied depending on who was reporting it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 1:50am


Security is about doing it correctly. Half assed systems don't work and can increase the danger.

I read an interesting article the other day about gun carrying people's intervention in shootings .vs waiting for the cops.

The numbers worked out to an average of <3 people dead when a gun carrying member of society intervenes .vs >20 people dead when waiting for the cops to respond.

There was also a good mention on the "Batman Movie" shooter specifically choosing the cinema which prohibited firearms, it was the only 1 of 7 in the area.

I can't find the link now (of course) but I will keep looking for the information.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 9:02am
What has happened to our society, our culture? Why have we degenerated into this culture of violence, what has changed in the past 50 or so years. In the 1950's growing up we did not see this behavior, did we have a moral compass back then, if so what was it?
Television, movies, music had an innocense to it, violence was not a 'mainstay' in our entertainment back then. Leave it to Beaver was a look into the innocense, Gilligans Island, Batman (TV series, look where that has gone from a comic book look to a blood fest), westerns were life lessons, Star Trek looked into man's flaws.

Now we have shows glorifying the disfunctional family, Hollywood, quick to voice thier anti-gun stance all the while making blood soaked films because 'they sell'. Is there a corelation between these violent video games and the way weak menatlly ill minds percieve reality?

I do find it interesting that Isreal, an 'armed' culture by necesity manages not to have these violence problems, because as was seen in Oregon, our 'brave' criminals really prefer victims that can not shoot back. Do we need armed and visable guards in our culture, prefered over punishing the innocent majority because we as a culture do not have the moral courage to address the real problem in our culture.
Gun control just means those who can still aquire guns have no fear of the 'victim' and we get a predatory culture able to prey on the unarmed victims with little fear, and when caught a judicial system that will protect the criminal over the culture itself.

Here is a test of our culture. I bet you can name the shooters at Columbine, or the Conneticut shooter(s) now without looking it up, name one victim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:



Security is about doing it correctly. Half assed systems don't work and can increase the danger.

A lot of teachers don't have the desire to touch a gun. Good luck getting them to train with the and use them. Parents would freak out if there were guns in the classrooms. The only way to make this happen is to keep the information confidential from everyone. Only the pro-gun, trained and responsible teachers would have them.

My high school and middle school had a few armed officers assigned year-round. There would be an immediate response to any violent action. I get that they would probably take the first hit, and that security is better when the guards aren't known; but it's better than nothing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:22am
The atrocity at the Connecticut elementary school will not be the last such horror, nor was it the first or even the worst. Go back to the year 1764, in what is now Franklin County, Pennsylvania. The first: during Pontiac’s Rebellion in the wake of the French and Indian War, four “warriors” entered a schoolhouse and slaughtered the headmaster and some ten children. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac%27 ... l_massacre . The worst: in 1927, a crazed monster beat his wife to death, then triggered a bombing in an elementary school in Bath, Michigan, killing some 38 kids and several adults. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster .

I’ll repeat what I said in the Wall Street Journal op-ed section and on the Today show in 1999, after the Columbine High School atrocity: if we simply prepared teachers to handle this type of crisis the way we teach them to handle fires and medical emergencies, the death toll would drop dramatically. We don’t hear of mass deaths of children in school fires these days: fire drills have long since been commonplace, led by trained school staff, not to mention sprinkler systems and smoke alarms and strategically placed fire extinguishers that can nip a blaze in the bud while firefighters are en route. In the past, if someone “dropped dead,” people would cry and wring their hands and wail, “When will the ambulance get here?” Today, almost every responsible adult knows CPR; most schools have easily-operated Automatic Electronic Defibrillators readily accessible; and a heart attack victim’s chance of surviving until the paramedics arrive to take over is now far greater.

The same principle works for defending against mass murders…it just doesn’t work HERE, because it is politically incorrect to employ it HERE. After the Ma’alot massacre in 1974, Israel instituted a policy in which volunteer school personnel, parents, and grandparents received special training from the civil guard, and were seeded throughout the schools armed with discreetly concealed 9mm semiautomatic pistols. Since that time, there has been no successful mass murder at an Israeli school, and every attempt at such has been quickly shortstopped by the good guys’ gunfire, with minimal casualties among the innocent. Similar programs are in place in Peru and the Phillippines, with similarly successful results.

Some people see the logic in the Israeli approach. Dave Workman does, as seen here: http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-w ... b_articles . Ann Coulter does, as seen here: http://www.thewrap.com/media/column-pos ... laws-69361 .

Unfortunately, in this country, logic has been buried under political correctness. Those in power whose ego is invested in brie et Chablis values that include scorn for the peasantry they accuse of “clinging to guns and Bibles” will never see that logic. Children will continue to die in gun-free zones hunting preserves for psychopathic murderers, and the cowardly murderers will continue to surrender or kill themselves as soon as armed good guys show up…far too late. ~ Maasad Ayoob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:30am
A buddy of mine who used to be a deputy(is now a recruit for the Marshals), posited the other day that maybe there would be a way for select teachers to receive a training course fom local PDs/SOs. Where the teachers that are selected/volunteer/whatever take a couple weeks of their 3 month summer vacation and get some training from LEOs for active shooter scenarios.



The more I think about it though, the less favorably I view that particular option. No way in hell would I want guns in the classrooms at my high school surrounded by the type of population that existed there. How long would it be before a couple gang members rushed a teacher to steal the gun?

The only way it'd be feasible, would be some type of massive spending to install some type of locked safe system that required both the teacher unlocking it, and a signal from elsewhere allowing the safe to be opened.


Maybe an increase in SRO presences is the answer. I know most elementary school don't have them.





OS, I have to disagree with a lot of what you wrote. Sort of looking at the past through rose colored glasses, IMO. There have been confirmed serial killers for at least 600 years.

There may not have been violence on TV shows back when, but when there's only 3 channels, that likelihood goes way down doesn't it? I also don't think it's fair to denounce the violence in modern culture while talking about westerns(which were chock full of violence) as teaching life lessons while they glorified a pretty terrible time in our nation's history.

Also, someone else may have the link, but I'm pretty sure the whole, "video games make people violent/aggressive" thing has been pretty widely disproven in the long term.(ie; more than RIGHT after playing)

Something I find interesting, tough, is your idea about our nation's view on armed security. You see it whenever an event needs security. Hell, after 9/11, people cried out about having national guard troops supporting airport security. Any time LE or military forces have to turn out in numbers or riot gear, they're jackbooted thugs trying to suppress people. Maybe we live in a nation of sheep that resent the sheppherd and the sheepdogs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:35am
How would the students know which teachers are carrying concealed? Think of it as air marshals. They know someone is carrying, but who....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:43am
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:



A lot of teachers don't have the desire to touch a gun. Good luck getting them to train with the and use them. Parents would freak out if there were guns in the classrooms. The only way to make this happen is to keep the information confidential from everyone. Only the pro-gun, trained and responsible teachers would have them.



I think you still run the risk of teachers bailing out of schools if they know that some of their peers are armed, no matter the intent of even a voluntary program.
Given the nature of the education training that people are being given today (as a product of it myself) the vast majority of new teachers are being cut from the same cloth as the anti-gunners are. Forcing teachers into weapons training is a bad enough idea, but you're still going to have teachers quit their positions if they thought for a second that any of their fellow teachers were carrying.

These people are 'anti-gun' about as much as they are 'anti-violence' and will not see past the fact that there's an armed teacher or two in the building- no matter the implications of security.

The only option I can think think of that would be remotely feasible, would be to have some sort of rotational basis set up with local law enforcement offices where someone is assigned to 'school duty' as a uniformed officer for a period of time, and have it rotate- as much of a shift as anything else.

But this would have to be done everywhere. That means municipalities shelling out for full time officers, paying for training, benefits and overtime......etc. There's a lot of holes in this idea, but its really the only way I can think of to keep teachers and parents from getting bent up about having either an armed teacher or six, or leaving schools completely unprotected- largely as is.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:44am
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

How would the students know which teachers are carrying concealed? Think of it as air marshals. They know someone is carrying, but who....






But how difficult would it really be for a couple guys in Sur13(and I pick Sur 13 because, at my school at least, they would be far and away the group most likely to be involved in something like this) to deduce who's likely enough to at least be worth a fight with? Take out the elderly teachers, at least assume that male teachers are more likely to volunteer, etc. A lot of those guys are just waiting to turn 16 so they can drop out anyways, and trying to fight teachers happens anyways. All it takes is getting a couple of younger members to try to pick a fight with a suspected carrier and it's confirmed. It's easy to tell if someone is armed while theyre defending themselves.

Not saying all schools are like this, but I know there are a lot of schools way worse than mine was, and I wouldn't have wanted teachers there carrying on their persons.


Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:




But this would have to be done everywhere. That means municipalities shelling out for full time officers, paying for training, benefits and overtime......etc. There's a lot of holes in this idea, but its really the only way I can think of to keep teachers and parents from getting bent up about having either an armed teacher or six, or leaving schools completely unprotected- largely as is.



The high schools(and maybe the middle schools?) have SROs in my county, and most of the surrounding area. It's a position in the Sheriff's Office. My HS had two or three, one of whom who was a K-9 officer.

Edited by usafpilot07 - 17 December 2012 at 11:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:50am
I thought schools have zero tolerance policy's when it comes to violence? I'm sure these kids have a history of fighting before making it to HS, why let them enter general population.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

I thought schools have zero tolerance policy's when it comes to violence? I'm sure these kids have a history of fighting before making it to HS, why let them enter general population.


At my school, a fight was a ten day out of school suspension. The fighting with a teacher we usually a "by-product" of a fight getting pulled apart.


I don't want to give the wrong idea about my school. I felt safe 99%+ of the time. But there were some guys I wouldn't want to run into now, and more than once I saw people do things I thought only happened in LA, New York, and bars in bad 90s movies.

Edited by usafpilot07 - 17 December 2012 at 12:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:05pm
Fighting on school grounds, should result in expulsion. If they want to fight indoors, they can wait till they get to prison.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

The only option I can think think of that would be remotely feasible, would be to have some sort of rotational basis set up with local law enforcement offices where someone is assigned to 'school duty' as a uniformed officer for a period of time, and have it rotate- as much of a shift as anything else.

But this would have to be done everywhere. That means municipalities shelling out for full time officers, paying for training, benefits and overtime......etc. There's a lot of holes in this idea, but its really the only way I can think of to keep teachers and parents from getting bent up about having either an armed teacher or six, or leaving schools completely unprotected- largely as is.


There are approximately 100,000 public schools in the U.S. Figure one officer per school during the school day, times about ten months of attendance a year, 83,000 person-years of police duty per annum to do this. At a median salary of $53k per year in the U.S., you're at close to $4.5 billion per annum in salary alone. Add other benefits and personnel expenses, officers being on vacation and being replaced, etc, and you should easily be looking at in excess of $6b/a. There are about 800,000 police officers in the U.S., so this would take up more than a tenth of America's total sworn police officer capacity.
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