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Elementary School Shooting

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rednekk98 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 11:40am
Because somehow atheists, gays, and Muslims are to blame for this. Classy as always FE, I'm sure if his family had prayed over his brain, God would have fixed his crazy just like your broken arm.

EDIT: OK, this^^ is fairly caustic but I don't know about vulgar, unless someone posted after me and deleted it. FE's comment just seem too much like that piece falsely attributed to Ben Stein that's been all over facebook lately, which pretty much blames an end of forced prayer in schools and the use of "Happy Holidays" for murders, hurricanes and 9/11. I guess WBC is gaining steam. Also, your version of a God, who would punish societies in such horrible ways, or refrain from interceding because the state is barred from actively trying to convert children, is a psychopath. Is a deity who  demands everybody be made to bow down and kiss his glorious backside under threat of violence worthy of worship?


Edited by rednekk98 - 15 December 2012 at 2:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 11:43am
  • Go post your vulgarities on some other socal degenerate website, Mr. Potty mouth. For someone who has been around this website for nearly ten years, is it really that hard to use family friendly langauge? Edit your post yourself and watch your langauge. 

Lets all remember to show some class and respect with how we speak on this board.


Edited by God - 15 December 2012 at 11:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 12:00pm
Where is the 'moral' compass of any society or culture. Is it a 'religion', a mass belief system, rule of law, what exactly determines the right and wrong of any society or culture. A few thousand years ago a group of men assembled some writings, and called thier 'book' the comandments of thier society and culture and the behaviors accepted and not. As well in many cases the punishment for those who did not obey that societies and cultures 'rules'.

We have many today who totally discount those writings as the falicies of man, yet are more than willing to accept the writings of nine men and women in Washington DC to write and determine the bahavior standards of our society and culture. Are these also the falicies of man?

We as a culture have lost the ability to see morally wrong actions as just that. The funeral possetion of Jovan Belcher that football player that murdered his girlfriend was a 'celebration' rather than the funeral of a murderer, and what of the young lady he killed, where was her life portrayed in the media, did she deserve to die that day, and what made Jovan Belcher's life that much greater and important to be celebrated than his victim, Kasandra M. Perkins life

We as a society and culture have become desensitized to our fellow mans plight, and our legal system has made it clear you can not voice your concerns about your neighbors behavior without fear of legal repercussions. We see there were concerns about that young mans behavior and activities, yet what was done? What could be done under the constructs of law we have written to protect his 'rights' over the 'rights' of the society and culture. We are not debating the 'rights' of all, but hose identified as having mental health issues that could threaten those around them or themselves. The individual was identified as having mental health issues, intelligent but socially awkward, but there were several 'warning' signs according to the brother that should have been addressed. We will never know what went through this young mans mind. He possibly had a vengence issue with his mother, saw these children as getting more of his mothers attention than he did, and went out to kill his mother, and those his mother 'loved' more than he.

Now we have the political agenda of gun control, it is not the inanimate object that kills it is the operator of that object. I saw on a blog, and I do NOT see this commment as a norm, but it is just as relevant as the knee jerk reaction of gun 'control'. The blogger stated why do we not have "retard control", again a knee jerk emotional response to the event, more than a rational thought, but in a sense why are the mentally ill not 'controled' within our society and culture than a peice of metal, there is a need to protect the society and culture from both, not just the one that is convienient? Anyone who kills has some form of mental illness, for our society and culture does not see that behavior as a 'norm' and a correct way to handle an issue, we even question or law enforcement when they 'kill' in the line of duty.

Do I believe in Gun Control, to a point yes, do I believe that guns kill, NO...Man kills. And now for political reasons the gun control arguement will rise, the 'arguement' on the stricter control of mental health issues will not even be addressed as not to offend someone, somewhere, till the next time.

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Edited by Evil Elvis - 15 December 2012 at 12:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 3:00pm
The media keeps mentioning the shooter was autistic. What does that have to do with anything?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

The media keeps mentioning the shooter was autistic. What does that have to do with anything?
Drives home the point that people who do these things don't have brains that work like the rest of ours. People with autism-spectrum disorders have problems interpreting the feelings of others, and are often socially inept or inappropriate. This is clearly atypical and an extreme case of how that can play out, but relevant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 3:31pm
So do we make everyone with autism a prohibited possessor?

Edited by impulse418 - 15 December 2012 at 3:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 3:47pm
As I understand it, yes. If you have a mental disorder, you are prohibited from owning a firearm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:01pm
It's worth looking into. Same with schizophrenia. Those people are unlikely to do anything like this, but it's a conversation starter. I'd be fine with allowing for a fast track to prohibiting someone from purchasing or possessing a firearm based on mental health concerns. Handling this with due process would be tricky, but healthcare professionals or concerned family members should be able to get at least a temporary hold placed on someone. This of course doesn't work without registration to determine if someone has already purchased firearms. If you can get someone admitted for an observation hold, you should be able to put them on a "no-guns" watch. Of course, the NRA tells you that registration will lead to confiscation. I'd also like to see high-capacity long guns classified like pistols with an age restriction of 21. As for an AWB, except for the magazine capacity issue, about the only thing in that whole list of banned features that made and sense at all was a restriction on folding or collapsible stocks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:01pm
Welp you just made half of this country prohibited possessors. At least.

ADD? Sorry. PTSD? Thanks for serving, now gives us the rifle platform we trained you on. Get some depression medication after a family died, because it's easier to give a pill than offer proper counseling. Hand over the gun your mother left you in the will.

Edit: In response too Det

Edited by impulse418 - 15 December 2012 at 4:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:20pm
Det, that's not it and shouldn't be, it's simply too restrictive and would only discourage people from seeking help, although I am concerned that that is the fear too many gun owners have. In order to prohibit someone from owning a firearm, you need to get them declared incompetent, or have them forcibly committed or sent to rehab etc. It's too difficult and takes to long. Just getting the car keys from my grandmother was an unpleasant experience that simply took much too long, but getting her prohibited from driving after developing dementia was a lot easier than it would be to get someone prohibited from buying or possessing a firearm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:32pm
I was speaking to a shrink that was teaching a brief course during work training.

It use to be very easy to have someone committed. Not so much now a days. Not sure if it was people abusing the power, or HIPPA, or both. That caused that to be reversed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:42pm
I figured that was a bit "blanket." I admit I need to reread the laws.

I have been thinking a lot on the subject of the 2nd Amendment these days, but I cannot seem to type up a coherent post on the subject. I'll duck down and read what input folks have to offer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 5:22pm
The easiest way I can think of to get someone prohibited, at least in this state, would be getting a restraining order placed on that person. Something similar would be great for putting a hold on a firearms sale of longer than time currently allowed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 8:00pm
Problem is in the 'due process' requirements for that restraining order. Does the individual meet the 'requirements' of a danger to person or persons so mentioned in the 'restraining order' if at present there is no way to legally place mental health issues into the requirements. The 'secrecy' and protections legally allowed to those with mental illness prevent the legal system from using the information if obtainable. Patient/Doctor confidentuality law is quite plain on what can be obtained, how, and then admitted for an evauluation. Any 2 bit lawyer now can get any court order for the infromation quashed on appeal, and inadmisable, it is the 'monster' we created, where the criminal, or threat to the society has far more 'rights' and protections than the society itself.

We can not turn into a police state, yet can not let issues like this go unadressed, and gun control does nothing to adresss criminal behavior or mental health issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yomillio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

The media keeps mentioning the shooter was autistic. What does that have to do with anything?
Drives home the point that people who do these things don't have brains that work like the rest of ours. People with autism-spectrum disorders have problems interpreting the feelings of others, and are often socially inept or inappropriate. This is clearly atypical and an extreme case of how that can play out, but relevant.

Just to draw on this, a Sociology professor I had gave us a true story of his autistic brother in class one day.  

More or less, the important point is this:
- Professor, Autistic Brother, and Mother were in a room, with a toy ball.
- With everyone present, the ball was placed into "Drawer 1"
- Mother left the room, and the ball was moved from "Drawer 1" to "Drawer 2"
- Mother came back in the room; Professor asked Autistic Brother where Mother would assume the ball to be.
- Autistic Brother answered "Drawer 2", as he had no sense of his mother's being.

A very plain example of a rather severe case of autism, but I figured it would be relevant for the purposes of potentially understanding how autism may play into an event like this.  Less severe cases are often not this severe, but understanding of "others" is often a difficult point - ranging from mearly understandings other's feelings to as bad as the example above.  Something like this is VERY relevant to the current event, though it seems that has already been established here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by Skillet42565 Skillet42565 wrote:

<Still not really appropriate given the gravity of what happened>


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Edited by Mack - 15 December 2012 at 9:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:27am
I've been hearing people since yesterday cry out for more gun control and restrictions when the guns didn't even belong to the perpetrator. How would gun restrictions keep guns out of the hands of those who don't even own them?

Obviously it is the gun owner's fault for not following proper gun storage procedure. Honestly, more training is needed on the gun owner's part.

People still blame the guns and not the person pulling the trigger. It's almost as if some people have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to guns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 1:26am
I agree on the mental health issue, but I can't reason where the line should be drawn.

Our culture is to blame. A big problem is the stigma involved in being mental health patient. Americans have a way of ignoring or declaring taboo those subjects that make people uncomfortable. Instead of confronting our problems, we shun those who bring those problems to light.

The person who realizes he has a problem doesn't want to get help, because he's afraid that the social stigma of the condition will affect his relationships and his job. He's afraid that seeking help will make him a lesser person. He's worried that few people care anyway, and for the most part, he's right. You can't change a culture to understand and accept mental patients overnight.

This problem hits my industry hard. Pilots who talk about depression are grounded immediately. They lose the one thing that lets them escape from their problems for a while. Airlines do not like hiring people with records of mental health issues, however small. The result? You have some very stressed and depressed people flying airliners. Stigma and harsh reactions keep people from reaching out for help. The cost also contributes to this.

Gun violence in general is almost exclusively related to organized crime. We can't fix gun violence until we fix gangs. That, I have no idea how to solve, but it may start with reducing the circumstances that cause people to join gangs in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 4:14am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:


People still blame the guns and not the person pulling the trigger. It's almost as if some people have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to guns.


I'm always amazed people Call for more restrictions on things, seeming to forget that it is already illegal to murder a classroom full of children.

Laws don't actually DO anything besides giving you something to punish a person with once they have already done something, they don't prevent or stop someone doing something.

To stop then you need people willing and able to be there a these things happen. And that means good guys with guns. The bad guys are bringing guns to places where people don't have them and committing henious crimes and they carry on doing so UNTIL PEOPLE WITH GUNS ARRIVE TO STOP THEM or they choose to stop themselves. Cut out the middle men and have guys with guns there already.

I don't know if the answer is armed teachers or a type of school marshal but obviously the whole cowering in the corner and hiding doesn't work too well.

For those worried about the blood bath that armed bystanders will r reap, in this case they would have to have killed less than 28 other people and it would havebeen a success...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2012 at 4:28am
What kayback said
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