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Elementary School Shooting

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usafpilot07 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Elementary School Shooting
    Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:24pm
Makes all the little arguments we have on here seem trivial. God help the families of those victims. Last estimate I saw was 18 kids, 9 adults.


Hope the killer spends the rest of eternity wallowing in the darkest pit of hellfire they can find.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20730717

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:26pm
To borrow my own rant from Reb's wall: 

It's a shame that this is going to devolve once again into a debate that we need fewer or more laws about guns instead of the very, very serious conversation that needs to occur concerning the state of mental healthcare in the U.S.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:27pm
You know, as soon as I read this, I wanted to get in here and talk about it. My social media feeds are already bound up with nonsense, and believe it or not, this is one place where much of the time that doesn't get in the way.

The more I dwell on it though, with two kids of my own, one of which will be entering Kindergarten soon....the less I actually want to talk about it, and the more I want to get in my car and go the hell home right now.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:38pm
Reb, obviously not the same connection, but my mother is a 1st grade teacher, and quite a few of my family members are also elementary school teachers.  This is insane and cannot comprehend how someone could do this.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:46pm
I already got myself into the mess, but I kinda did walk into it on FB. I think it is petty and stupid to argue about it, even though I feel my opinion isn't unfair. Thanks for backing me up tallen.

I will say, three shootings this year, two this week, what is the world coming to? Ban guns all day, but there are still people out there wanting to do these things and will continue to do so regardless of how available firearms are or are not. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 2:03pm
Whale's been saying it- and he's correct. Every time one of these things happens, the 'gun' and 'criminal' debates detract from the conversation we SHOULD be having- the one on mental health. Recognizing, preventing, and treating it. Then, as soon as the dust settles and we go back to our lives in a week or two, its all forgotten about again until the next time it happens.

There's no rhyme or reason to it. We're fast to yell about what someone did, and how they did it- but practically ignore the 'why.'




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 2:08pm
Much too close to home for comfort. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 2:17pm
We as a society and culture have created this monster, as stated the lack of a defined mental health identifacation and treatment program that does not violate someone's 'rights' needs to be addressed.

The 'rights' of the 'undiagnosed' mental health issue individual are paramount and only questioned after something like this happens. The individual with mental health issues is protected by the system even if known there are known issues, unless the individual or courts actually are 'forced' to address the issue usually 'after the fact' of some behavior like we see here. And then it is the 'job' of the criminal defense attorney to prove it was not the individuals fault, but the society and culture that 'drove' him to this behavior.

Again we created this monster, and now have no real answer to it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

We as a society and culture have created this monster, as stated the lack of a defined mental health identifacation and treatment program that does not violate someone's 'rights' needs to be addressed.

The 'rights' of the 'undiagnosed' mental health issue individual are paramount and only questioned after something like this happens. The individual with mental health issues is protected by the system even if known there are known issues, unless the individual or courts actually are 'forced' to address the issue usually 'after the fact' of some behavior like we see here. And then it is the 'job' of the criminal defense attorney to prove it was not the individuals fault, but the society and culture that 'drove' him to this behavior.

Again we created this monster, and now have no real answer to it.


Essentially what I've been getting at for most of the afternoon. I've said it, Whale will say it, I think more and more people agree that it's a mental health issue and not a gun issue or a criminal issue.

The fact that you can be admitted to a psychiatric institution and so long as you are released within a month, it never hits any kind of record, is a travesty concerning public safety. The naysayers will tell you that it would prevent people from seeking help, but I highly doubt this is the actual case. It takes the act of a judge to get someone admitted against their will these days. And while I understand that certain abuses were taken in the past, we are better equipped today to prevent the well from being thrown in with the sick. I cannot help but believe that if there were a federally funded mental health system in place like there was prior to the 1980's, we wouldn't see this kind of thing nearly as often. That's not to say it didn't happen back then, but preventing people like these from getting firearms, or even being out and about on the streets unsupervised, would be much, much easier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 2:53pm
Note, this is not a condemnation of firearm status, but of mental health, but the phrase I've seen kicked around that I think is rather fitting to the moment is: When it becomes cheaper and easier to buy a firearm than to receive a psychiatric evaluation or see a therapist, this is going to happen occasionally. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 3:01pm
I think the unfortunate truth of the matter is that there is no way to predict or prevent most of these killings.

As far as gun control, I think at this point AR 15's are probably on borrowed time. A new AWB is almost inevitable if this crap keeps happening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by SSOK SSOK wrote:


I will say, three shootings this year, two this week, 

I had a CJ professor who always said the most dangerous time to be anywhere is in the week following a shooting because that is when there is the greatest risk for copy cat shootings.  It's a shame he might be right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 3:14pm

There will always be a stigma when it comes to mental health. I had a patient who was deemed SMI and received a disability check due to his schizophrenia. He came to our facility often, and I was usually the one that did his intake. Even though I had built rapport with him, when it came to ask if he had any psych issues. He would more than likely flat out lie, or try to justify why he wasn't the way he is. I also ran into people who obviously had a mental impairment, but refused to speak with a psychiatrist, because they were "fine". And when people start throwing around removing rights, if someone decided to receive mental health treatment. It will only push people farther away. Especially veterans with PTSD.

What usually will happen is these people will end up in our correctional facility's. Where they will receive zero mental treatment, and subsequently end up in  a revolving door. When we have private prison corporations lobbying, things like this are bound to occur.

And ironically the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest, did more harm to our mental health treatment in America, than good. All of the patients who were released, most likely ended up in prison or dead.


Edited by impulse418 - 14 December 2012 at 3:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 11:14pm
Treatment sucks, the stigma sucks worse. A good friend of mine has been on a bad path for years, got into drugs badly, ruined serious relationships, tried to get clean and recently ended up in the psych ward. I'll support him, but you can't pretend that there's nothing wrong and it isn't  big deal in order to keep things pleasant. His guns have been in my safe for a while now, and are staying there. You need to do something when there's a public risk, regardless of political beliefs. Taking Grandma's car keys when she starts to lose it is no picnic either, but you need to do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadeye007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 11:56pm
Another issue in mental health is getting the patients to continue with the medication. It seems like an endless cycle of 1. the patient doing something severe enough to be taken to an institution or at least having MHMR (Texas authority on mental health, I don't know what other states call it) check the patient out. 2. The patient gets on medication and gain control in his/her life. 3. The patient gets well enough to leave the institution or quit being monitored by MHMR. 4. The the patient maintains self reliance for a while, but starts to miss doses of medication because they think they are in control and no longer need medication, or get sick and tired of the horrible side affects that come with the medication. 5. The next step is for the patient to slip back into step 1.

There is a lot of room for improvement in the mental health field.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 12:29am
I really feel for the families. There aren't words to express my sorrow.

It is still only 3 out of 250 000 000 gun owners, and this lady guy was not legally allowed to own them anyway. It isn't about laws though because it is illegal to murder a classroom full of children

I still stand by my comments in the last one. Investigate, find the cause, hope to prevent another, bury him in an unmarked grave, stop flooding the air waves with stuff about him. Concentrate on the families that have been destroyed.

He is one person who had topped the hearts out of hundreds. Hee should not be getting the attention.

This isn't about guns. It is about people. And they do need looking at. And some do need locking up if they pose a danger to others. This isn't Minority Report pre crime stuff either it is about finding the crazies and getting them help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 9:00am
Such a heart wrenching event... The families affected will never be the same again. 

Evil has that effect, and we all live in a society that is now "not a Christian nation". And this is the consequence, as people who have a non-Godly moral compass will do things like this. 

John Adams said it best. 

"There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."

There are consequences for our godless "progress" and no laws or rules or banning of items will change the moral breakdown that results from our lack of God as our moral focus in our culture. 

THAT is the issue, and the cause of this type of horror. 


There was a sermon that discussed this issue in 1799 by Jebediah Morse. 

"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 10:28am
And that is why these things will continue to happen.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 11:09am
<inappropriate given the gravity of what happened>

That is a ridiculous statement that cheapens the deaths of the people yesterday, this has nothing to do with the magic sky wizards of 2000 year old books that people pray to, it has to do with mental health and the serious lack of care for the mentally ill in this country.  No amount of religion or praying  will fix people like him, they need help before they fly off the handle.


Edited by Mack - 15 December 2012 at 9:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 11:32am
......so as soon as everyone converts to and practices Christianity devoutly, mental illness will be cured?


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