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So state secession...

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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: So state secession...
    Posted: 15 November 2012 at 5:47pm
Are these people serious?

When I talk about a modern state secession I'm doing so in a purely hypothetical sense like talking about cloning dinosaurs or my cousins bathing.

Is this a prominent thing everywhere or just red states with FB accounts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2012 at 6:02pm
I'm pretty sure it's just a backwater thing taken for a media tour. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2012 at 6:16pm
Was wondering when this would be brought up here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2012 at 6:23pm
Like the thread I started the other day. I'm delving deeper into Facebook groups. They are so backwards in their opinions. It's beyond just not agreeing with someone. Just delusional.

I read Glenn Becks response. At first I was like "holy crap Glenn beck is reasonable" then when I read it he says don't sign so you're not on a government watch list lol
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2012 at 6:24pm
I was hoping someone would bring up a discussion about this. Kind of surprised the amount of people who have put their name to the petitions.

Not that we're in any way Ina situation that would be a catalyst for an actual, widespread separatist movement, but it's interesting to think about what would have to happen to force it.

Would it be a gradual thing, that slowly builds up over the next decades/century? One or a small number of large actions that spark anger?(ie, repealing 2nd Amendment rights, UN intervention in some large scale riot, etc.)

It'd be interesting to talk about where the divides would actually occur, what the "separation" would look like, and what level of violence actually happened.

I am sure some members of the forum will just brush it away offhand, and pretend that anyone who discusses the possibility is a loon. However, I think you can at least look at it as a hypothetical. We're a very large country, with a media that loves to blow things out of proportion. It's not unreal to think that however much farther in the future(whether it be decades or centuries) that the US as we know it won't be one large entity. It's happened in every other portion of the world, I'd not be surprised if something happens in the next 200 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2012 at 6:43pm
Scotland has a referendum for independence from the UK in 2014. The implications still haven't sunk in for me. I guess I just don't see it happening.

So yeah looks like if enough people get behind it then it really could happen no major political/ socio-economic events required. Just a party that wants it getting some momentum.


Edited by scotchyscotch - 15 November 2012 at 6:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2012 at 9:36pm
Yeah and some Quebecois have wanted independence for ages, along with the Cascadia people, doesn't mean it matters. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2012 at 2:54am
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Yeah and some Quebecois have wanted independence for ages, along with the Cascadia people, doesn't mean it matters. 



Cascadia is more of a region/ idea though, it hasn't been serious in quite some time. Some Quebecois still want to leave, but that's just dumb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2012 at 8:18am
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Yeah and some Quebecois have wanted independence for ages, along with the Cascadia people, doesn't mean it matters. 



Cascadia is more of a region/ idea though, it hasn't been serious in quite some time. Some Quebecois still want to leave, but that's just dumb.

They're also French, so....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2012 at 9:44am
Originally posted by scotchyscotch scotchyscotch wrote:


Scotland has a referendum for independence from the UK in 2014. The implications still haven't sunk in for me. I guess I just don't see it happening.
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So yeah looks like if enough people get behind it then it really could happen no major political/ socio-economic events required. Just a party that wants it getting some momentum.


I remember it was a big thing when the Scots Parliament was brought back in 1997. There was a lot of talk about how it could lead to a much more independent Scotland etc. etc.

Aside from tourism though, what are the big industries for Scotland? I know you guys have the North Seas oil rigs, whiskys, and some pretty big financial groups (RBS and Lloyds) but economically, I think Scotland AND England would be worse off with a split.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2012 at 10:03am
As for the OT: Cracked.com has an unusually less-snarky article that sums it up pretty succinctly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2012 at 10:12am
I'm not actually too sure of it. Scotland does attract business to it now but probably not much more than any other wee country. There's a great deal of service industry goes on here, call centres, restaurant and retail etc also ship building as a massive part of the Scottish economy but that's pretty much dead now spare a few contracts for aircraft carriers and the like which would likely not return to an independent Scotland. We do get technology firms in the Silicon Glen and financial services will always be a big part of the Scottish economy.  Then theres the fishing which does quit well on the continent these days. And there's a big push on renewable energy (wind/wave mostly) so I think we're trying to get ahead of the game on that.

Public sector accounts for about 25% of employment here. No that worries me as I don't see a huge number of jobs for the UK government ie HMRC, passport offices, benefit delivery centres etc sticking around as I don't reckon UK people citizens would ant these aspects of their state outsourced to Scotland.

I tend to agree with you tallen in that I reckon we're better together. 

Also the question in the referendum will be "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?" at no point does it ask whether I have any faith in the current batch of jagaloons to run the country once it is independent.

Important questions are being asked of the Scottish government now like what legal standing is there for retaining the GBP as currency? Alec Salmond (first minister) dodges the question. Will Scotland be able to join the EU while retaining GBP?  Salmond actually lies to parliament stating he has got legal advice saying it's fine. No advice was sought. What happens to Trident which is based in Scotland?" We'll get rid of it I mean that as a massive part of our campaign! umm actually we probably will want to join NATO and keep a hold of them." 

So yeah I'm undecided but not very convinced so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2012 at 10:21am
I think it is more a message to Washington rather than a real threat. Secession is available for 'States' under the Constitution, it is a legal and viable alternative, but the practicality of it is questionable.

Would I like to see a United Central States of America in the 'red' heartland, free of the dependant 'broke' states, yes, practical, no.
The social values of Nebraska are far differant than New York, and our voting represented that. That is where the problem lies. The dominant coastal and uppeer belt states tend to garner all the attention, while Nebraska and states in the area are just "who cares, fly over states".

If we are ignored by the 'powerfull' maybe going our own way may be a good thing, but who will pay in the long run....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:42am
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


Would I like to see a United Central States of America in the 'red' heartland, free of the dependant 'broke' states, yes,

One, it's the other way around, we've been over this. 

Two, "the heartland" is really rather dependent, financially, on Federal farming subsidies, from direct payments to crop insurance to funding for infrastructure for the crop itself. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:56am
Where do you get this? The six major corn growers here in Ceresco get NO subsidies, and lost thier shirts from the dry we had this year.
The ethanol subsidies are long gone, and few if any grow for corn for ethanol anymore.
The local quikstop breakfast that I sat in on the major complain and thought of the day complaint was NO help from the Feds on this years losses, as well as the price per bushel down since quality was down.
Several did not even make costs.

Now imagine a crop that could be sold on a free market to the Coastal Union that could arise from a seperation, a economy free of Federal policies that benifit the 'Blue' at the cost of the 'Red'. The Chinese and Russians in competition for the crop, yes the UCSA would benifit from a secession in many ways. Notice where major industry is relocating to? Wonder why, could it be the difference in mindset here in the 'Heartland' over the coastal fiscal fiascos. We have <4% unemployment in our area, and have to import out of state labor, the I-80 corridor from Omaha to Lincoln is a mass of construction of factories, distribution centers, warehousing, how is Florida or Ohio doing? Now imagine the UCSA as a seperate and now equal 'State' in direct economic competition with the USA.

It won't happen but the potential is fun to think about.

You really need to get out here listen and see for yourself what is happening in rural fly over country, rather than listening to the 'approved' version from the sources you prefere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2012 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Where do you get this? The six major corn growers here in Ceresco get NO subsidies, and lost thier shirts from the dry we had this year.

You really need to get out here listen and see for yourself what is happening in rural fly over country, rather than listening to the 'approved' version from the sources you prefere.
 
What he's talking about are the much talked about "welfare states." There's this theory that floats around every election that people from them damned liberal states on their stupid welfare checks get up and vote so they don't lose their posh way of life.
 
The truth is that the biggets welfare centers tend to be in RED states.
 
Not that this is a reflection on personal character-most poverty level people I see and hear from here in Texas vote straight up Republican, so I'd be willing to bet that this myth is wrong on several different levels, not the least of which being that all poor people are Democrats.
 
Plus there's federal money, which, from everything I've read, tends to go more to red states than blue states.
 
I hate these discussions and that's why I was so slow to post this. I namely hate them because we start classifying each other by income level and vicious southern / northern stereotypes in an effort to back or disprove statistics.
 
The point is that talk of state secession is just another way of pouting and stomping feet when our side doesn't win. There are many, many outlets to show distaste with your elected officals (like, say, voting) that don't involve talking about improbably and diasasterous alternatives. I could make a list as to why it's impossible, but then again I could make the same last about the aforementioned dinosaurs and it would be a waste of breath because it's all obvious.
 
Originally posted by Tallen Tallen wrote:

As for the OT: Cracked.com has an unusually less-snarky article that sums it up pretty succinctly
 
I know, I saw that right after I posted this and was like "Damn, they said it way better than I could." Great article.
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