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rednekk98 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 November 2012 at 11:25pm
Freudian slip?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

Some saw what we were facing and decided we need to be as committed to our values as the enemy was/is to theirs, and found this by running for the most basics of the majority religion


That part stood out to me. "These religious extremists did something terrible....we need to be more extreme with our religion."

Edited by choopie911 - 09 November 2012 at 2:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 8:30pm
Americans are by majority a Christian people.

America is not a theocracy. Ergo, America is not a "Christian Nation." We are a nation of mostly Christians.

That change of syntax makes for a pretty big difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 8:16pm
Christianity and philosophy have changed quite a bit since then as well. A lot of enlightenment-era thinking was certainly based on the teachings of Jesus, but applied with a reverence for the natural world as it was instead of relying solely on scripture to find universal natural truths, and they drew heavily on philosophical methods of those heathen Greeks. Thinking outside of scripture to find truth is something many modern christians don't have the stones to do. That's why they have to assume all scientific evidence that is not obviously and literally in compliance with the Bible is Satan's lies. Which is why you get ideas like carbon-dating is either a trick of the devil or a test by God. Evangelicals have quite historically recently made Biblical literalism mainstream, like, since the Dixicrats jumped ship. Prior to that, except in times of massive and horrible turmoil, we've embraced a protestantism that placed a lot of value on natural law and reason over canon. Evangelism today seems intent on reinventing the pre-reformation Catholic church. Since 9/11 people have been taking a hard look at religion. Some saw what we were facing and decided we need to be as committed to our values as the enemy was/is to theirs, and found this by running for the most basics of the majority religion. Evangelism is big in the military, so there must be some degree of truth in this. Others swung hard to what they perceived as our secular values of striving for social equality and tolerance, and of those, some have become more skeptical of religion. Because of this, and our changing media, ways of worship, and communication, I don't think we've been seeing too many vocal "Turn the other cheek" type of christians, and many moderates on both sides of the aisle seem apathetic. 


On another note, I don't think I've managed so many micro-essays in such a short period of time since I was an undergrad. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 7:30pm
Well then back to the main point, whether documents have been updated, and times/ values have changed, America was absolutely not founded as a christian nation, and those who claim it was don't fully understand their own history.

Whenever I hear someone passionately use it as an argument, this is all I can think of
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

"Things have changed" is a fine argument, but if people want to play that game, you kind of discredit your own constitution as well, since things have changed a hell of a lot since those days too.


To be honest, so has the constitution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 6:37pm
"Things have changed" is a fine argument, but if people want to play that game, you kind of discredit your own constitution as well, since things have changed a hell of a lot since those days too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 6:11pm
Not that our modern interpretation of separation of church and state necessarily bothers me, I've always thought that in the context of the time period, it was a measure to prevent a government from forcing changes onto religion like the King did so frequently, not an effort to remove influences of theology entirely from the construction of a moral government.

Who gives a **edited** anyways, that's all gone out the window now.

Edited by usafpilot07 - 07 November 2012 at 6:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 5:46pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States#Religion

"Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics (D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.
A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson[18][19][20] (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin.[21] Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.[22]
Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".[23]"

Also

Separation of Church and State: In the United States, the term is an offshoot of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state", as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. The original text reads: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Jefferson reflected his frequent speaking theme that the government is not to interfere with religion.



Sorry to just copy/ paste wikipedia (follow the sources if you want) but it sure doesn't sound even remotely like the founding of a christian nation. In fact, it sounds like they were pretty specific about it NOT being a christian nation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 5:44pm
What does it matter? If the majority of the population are of a certain religion then their decisions/actions will undoubtedly be influenced by their beliefs which then leads to a country being termed as "Christian".

 The difference lies in what I see to be implied by people wanting to apply that label. Does this mean that in that country the beliefs of the Hindus, Buddhists and Wiccans are no longer valid as it doesn't fit the Christian template? Is it the Christians trying to project some kind of unanimous support for their ideals? 

I think the whole "No law establishing religion blah blah" line really does put the point across that although maybe inspired or connected by "Christian values" the countries conscience is not of one single religion and no attempt should be made to assume that it is or act on that assumption. 

I live in what is technically a Christian country and I would argue that we don't actually give it as much credit as you lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

America is not a christian nation, it WAS NOT founded as a christian nation. Your kind is guilty of historical revisionism to fit your personal values, then blast others for going against the founding values that DID NOT EXIST.


Source?


Treaty of Tripoli 1796, Article 11.


I dunno man, the wikipedia article on that states that's a controversial opinion.

Originally posted by Wikipedia Wikipedia wrote:

The treaty is cited as historical evidence by popular commentators and news magazines in the modern day controversy over whether there was religious intent by the founders of the United States government. Article 11 of the treaty has been interpreted as an official denial of an exclusively Christian basis for the U.S. government.[3] Professor of History John Fea, however, has recently noted in his book addressing the Christian element to the American founding that, "If the Treaty of Tripoli is correct...then someone forgot to tell the American people."[4] Many other historians, secular and religious, have further insisted on the relative unimportance of the document or argued against the position that it rules out the influences of religion on the Founders, the constitution, or American culture, at the time of the founding.


Edited by Rofl_Mao - 07 November 2012 at 5:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:


Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:


Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

America is not a christian nation, it WAS NOT founded as a christian nation. Your kind is guilty of historical revisionism to fit your personal values, then blast others for going against the founding values that DID NOT EXIST.


Source?


Treaty of Tripoli 1796, Article 11.


Thank you, nice and concise. Revisionist history for any agenda really, really irks me. It's wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

America is not a christian nation, it WAS NOT founded as a christian nation. Your kind is guilty of historical revisionism to fit your personal values, then blast others for going against the founding values that DID NOT EXIST.


Source?


Treaty of Tripoli 1796, Article 11.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

America is not a christian nation, it WAS NOT founded as a christian nation. Your kind is guilty of historical revisionism to fit your personal values, then blast others for going against the founding values that DID NOT EXIST.


Source?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 4:10pm
I voted for Obama the first time.  I never have and probably never will be on any type of government assistance, but I don't mind paying a little extra in taxes for those who need it.  I'm not gay, but I support gay marriage.  I support tighter environmental regulations, even though it will cost me more money.  I support healthcare reform, even though I will not benefit from it.

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:



the intent of my vote turned more towards who will do less damage to may wallet

But go ahead and continue telling me how I'm the one who voted for MY personal interests.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I'd also like to know where FE was getting $20/month health insurance for his employees 20 years ago? When I got my first "real job" 20 years or so ago, the company I was working for had to pay about $200 or so per month for my insurance and I was a early 20's male in good health.


Faith healing is cheap. The $20 a month was just him tipping jesus for coming in and healing their ailments on the spot. If it can work for his arm, it can work for his company.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

I never lost faith in American's to vote for thier own self interest.
 Rational self interest, something Ayn Rand gave a lot of credit to as the highest moral good. It's individualism V. civic responsibility, and is always at the heart of our debates in this country. 

I'm trying to be optimistic now that the election is over, and that the debate will become a little more sane. We have our largest demographic reaching retirement age, and many of them who could save for retirement lost a lot of it with the market crash, either because of unwise investment, or shady shell-games in the stock market involving questionable financial products and a terrible job by the ratings agencies. Again, you can't change the past (I still can't believe we're debating the New Deal) and I'd like to see some serious debates on how to cut spending and raise revenues, since both of those need to happen. 

I'll digress back into partisanship again for a second and comment on Bill O'Reily's recent remark about government dependency. I've been trying to watch FOX a bit today, and it's come up a bit, and I'll give them credit for debating it in a somewhat rational way. To me, it's clearly a racist dog whistle, even if not intentionally so. To point to (decisively more brown and unmarried) population shifts then complain that there are simply too many non-contributers really blows that whistle to the tune of the real problem being lazy minorities wanting free stuff. There are certainly abuses in the system. The bigger problem is that economic growth is pitiful, and its expensive to take care of old people.Thanks to her social security, my grandfathers veteran's benefits, and his 401k, we haven't needed to sell her house to pay the nursing home yet. I still think it's time to wake up and realize that it's going to cost us all, one way or another. Either we maintain safety nets and ladders of opportunity and pay that price, or we reduce economic activity out of fear of going broke, and take our neighbors down when we do.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 1:46pm
That's a long ways away. Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadeye007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

I think we agree on a lot more thing than you think. But the way I explain my opinions in a somewhat intellectual and more mature way, is definitely a driving factor.



but I think our overall leanings are fairly centrist with a healthy dose of "keep your nose out of my private life."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2012 at 1:13pm

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