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Waiting on CWP to come in. Need advice.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2012 at 6:04pm
I have never found a semi 22lr, that was reliable to trust my life with.

Warning shots?

Ugh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2012 at 6:18pm
Since FE hasn't got back on this yet, I will explain.  Bold is added for my emphasis on where I believe the questions following the original post came from.

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

First round would be a "pass through" round, least damage to the person shot, depending on shot placement of course... I carry one in the chamber so that is my "warning" shot. If I pull my gun out, it is to use it, not to "aim to miss" but, if I'm being attacked, I figure one shot that lets them change their mind before the next three hollow points start flying. Hollow points do so much more damage than a regular round tip bullet. 

And the last three are serious hollow points... I've shot some melons with them and they expand like crazy. If I get down to the last three, I am in serious trouble, and I want the most stopping power possible if I was ever faced with that situation. 


Plus a round tip would do better if I had to shoot through something on the first shot... aka window, door, ect.

I don't expect to ever have to use it, but I want to improve my odds of surviving if I ever did have to.



Originally posted by Ceesman762 Ceesman762 wrote:

"pass through round"? 


Round that "passes through" the target without doing the same amount of damage a hollow point would.

Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

I have never found a semi 22lr, that was reliable to trust my life with.

Warning shots?

Ugh


You misunderstand; FEs "warning shots" are rounds on target that should cause less damage than the rounds that will follow if the target persists in continuing the behavior that resulted in the target being shot at with the first round.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2012 at 6:46pm
Yeah if you are going to shoot, you better mean it. FE seems to have a good system there. If the first shot doesn't take him down and he keeps at it then the hollow points will turn him into perp soup.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2012 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Since FE hasn't got back on this yet, I will explain.  Bold is added for my emphasis on where I believe the questions following the original post came from.

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

First round would be a "pass through" round, least damage to the person shot, depending on shot placement of course... I carry one in the chamber so that is my "warning" shot. If I pull my gun out, it is to use it, not to "aim to miss" but, if I'm being attacked, I figure one shot that lets them change their mind before the next three hollow points start flying. Hollow points do so much more damage than a regular round tip bullet. 

And the last three are serious hollow points... I've shot some melons with them and they expand like crazy. If I get down to the last three, I am in serious trouble, and I want the most stopping power possible if I was ever faced with that situation. 


Plus a round tip would do better if I had to shoot through something on the first shot... aka window, door, ect.

I don't expect to ever have to use it, but I want to improve my odds of surviving if I ever did have to.



Originally posted by Ceesman762 Ceesman762 wrote:

"pass through round"? 


Round that "passes through" the target without doing the same amount of damage a hollow point would.

Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

I have never found a semi 22lr, that was reliable to trust my life with.

Warning shots?

Ugh


You misunderstand; FEs "warning shots" are rounds on target that should cause less damage than the rounds that will follow if the target persists in continuing the behavior that resulted in the target being shot at with the first round.


exactly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 2:01am
I can see the merit in FE's setup. I don't agree with it, but I can see the point.

In many places in the US, what you say is irrelevant. There are some things you could possibly say to make things worse for yourself, but if you draw a firearm and shoot it, if you hit him or not, if you kill him outright or not, you will have used lethal force and the situation had better warrant it otherwise you are the one in trouble.

Shooting to miss, warning shots and the like are all things that should have been accomplished with other methods. Verbal instructions and the like. By the time gunplay has entered into things, you are using lethal force, even if you don't kill the person you are shooting at.

I've agreed with OS on some of the things he has said, like the reactions of the untrained. The answer to this is to get more training. I've agreed the .22 has a place, for the extremely frail, or as a deep carry/backup gun. It shouldn't be the first line of defense. The needs of a 70's Under Cover Vice cop is also very different to the needs of a civilian defending themselves with a firearm.

While he may have needed to keep his cover by not dropping the badguy, you don't have that luxury. His "think the situation through" is golden advice. You should not be knee jerk reaction shooting to something. You must make a conscious decision when to draw and where to put the rounds.

If you are involved in a self defense shooting you'd better be the meanest mother poker around. Or at least appear so at the time. You do not get to decide when an engagement ends. That is up to the attacker. All you can do is try dissuade or stop him. You can only stop him by removing his ability to fight, either through destroying his CNS or through lack of blood to the brain. Pistols are not powerful enough to destroy major bones but maybe a disabling shot to his major bone structure. He can decide to break off the engagement if you respond in a non typical victim way.

But remember, it works both ways. The response to a threat is fight OR flight. The attacker MAY decide to run away, or he may decide to stay and duke it out.

If you've now fired 1/4 of your magazine in "warning shots whizzing by his brain" you are seriously getting behind the power curve.

And I reiterate, I've used my self defense gun against attacking animals. That isn't something to take lightly.

As for FE's mixed load, I get the FMJ in the spout. There is good cause for that. I might not agree with his definition of a warning shot, I don't see why it should not be a JHP. Bonded core JHP's have good barrier defeating properties, and there is more chance it'll work against the target to help him decide to bug out. Because he carries a .32 the FMJ is actually one of the better performing rounds. The .32 lack sufficient penetration to guarantee getting to the important bits. You might not be shooting your attacker cleanly in the chest. It may need to penetrate through clothing, arms or even just more of his chest if he is slightly sideways. A .32 FMJ does give you this depth and is a good choice for smaller calibers.

Question though, the next are various JHP's. What makes the last couple extra powerful? Why not run those in the entire magazine I? I never understand the argument of making the lower bullets in the mag more effective. If you forsee that problem make the upper rounds more effective to remove that problem?

Having carried various firearms over the years I can honestly say the size of the weapon has very little to do with the conceal-ability of it. The quality of the holster and a modicum of sense when it comes to selecting the outfit goes a long way.

The only concession I have made to my wardrobe is all my pants have belt loops. Even my shorts. You can get many different styles of shorts with belt loops to wear a belt capable of carrying a gun and in shorts and T shirts I look no different to many of the other people around.

A good quality holster will tuck the gun in close and tight to prevent printing, and a good quality belt, preferably one designed for a holster is almost as important to allow you to carry it without sagging. In the last 7 years of quality belts and holsters and carrying pretty much 19/24 hours, 365 days a year I have had 2 people notice I'm carrying a gun.

One was a person who hugged me when I was unable to deflect them, the other was at a work event where I accidentally allowed my firearm to flash them. They were standing directly behind my chair as I lent over a table to reach for something. If they hadn't been standing exactly there they would not have noticed anything.

There is nothing saying you can't carry a full sized firearm easily and comfortably. The FNP-9 is a good example of this. In a decent holster it will be unnoticeable to 99.9999% of the population.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ceesman762 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 11:27am
That is just it. "Pass through" sounds ridiculous. If you are to the point of having to pull that trigger, you shoot to kill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 12:13pm
Understand that the military per agreement and Geneva have to use FMJ's all the time. Even a pass through in the 'jelly bag' (belly) will do some serious damage to internal organs. There is an 'art' to shooting FMJ's and the aiming points. Back in the day It was for me just below center mass in the 'jelly bag', or brain housing group to insure first round or first three round drop with the 5.56 FMJ M-16.
Wounds are not a simple MW3 fix, and are quite dibilitating depending on where you hit. A 795fps .45ACP FMJ hitting muscle in upper arm or leg will cause cavitation or shock cavity indused arterial bleeding and enough damage to drop target motivation. The 1100fps 9mm FMJ not so much.

There are tactical applications for a 'pass through' to drop the target for 'capture', and to sometimes induce a physcological effect on the bad guys. Back in the day the physcological aiming point in long range marksmanship was 2in below the belt buckle, a 'pass through' usually but the target as well as those around him seriously 'rethink' the situation before them.

With the state of our legal system today, you really need to think quick and review the situation and have an understanding of the legal issues involved in a civilian vs criminal shooting. Several states are not friendly to vigilanty justice no matter how well justified at the time. Again I am not a fan of civilian carry, and the 'class' is far from enough training for Joe Civilian to have enough 'comman sense' as well as training. M ost threats percieved are imaginary and blown way out of proportion in the mind, almost to paranoia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by OS OS wrote:

M ost threats percieved are imaginary and blown way out of proportion in the mind, almost to paranoia.



This, this, this.

Unless you live in some kind of urban hell some of the scenarios I hear played out in these discussions border on Die Hard fan fiction.

"But what if he pulls a second Uzi and dodges to the right while throwing ninja stars?? MOCK ME THEN NEWB."

"Sometimes you find yourself surrounded by an entire gang carrying shotguns and pit bulls trained specifically to rape middle class businessmen. You'd be stupid NOT to stuff a .338 Lupua in your overcoat."

"Screw it, this is why I carry an RPG."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

There are tactical applications for a 'pass through' to drop the target for 'capture', and to sometimes induce a physcological effect on the bad guys. Back in the day the physcological aiming point in long range marksmanship was 2in below the belt buckle, a 'pass through' usually but the target as well as those around him seriously 'rethink' the situation before them.

Fate worse than death to many. It's downright cruel, but certainly what I'd be doing if it would keep my outfit alive.

Quote Again I am not a fan of civilian carry, and the 'class' is far from enough training for Joe Civilian to have enough 'comman sense' as well as training. Most threats percieved are imaginary and blown way out of proportion in the mind, almost to paranoia.

It depends on the attitude of the carrier. I had some friends who have fantasies of chasing down mass shooters and being heroes. Some are a product of the "sheepdog" mentality which I am not comfortable with carriers having.

Ideally, it's a last resort thing. I wouldn't execute vigilante justice by chasing down a criminal. A guy coming up on me with a gun is already assumed to be threatening my life, and I should be able to stop that threat.

In a mass shooting scenario, carriers should help others escape, and escape with them.

In the end, it's about having the option to do something in case you get royally screwed. Yes, the chances are low, yet every day there are multiple victims of gun crime. I don't pretend that low probability = impossible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 1:26pm
.22 rifle ONE shot. 


I think it is amusing when people advocate massive caliber guns for ccw. Personally, I wouldn't want to get shot by a .22 short... much less anything larger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 1:39pm
Shotgun, multiple blasts, KID survives.

http://gr.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/10w020/kid_survives_shotgun_wound_to_chest/

Wait, you mean we're not just linking stories of amazing stories that went against the odds?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 2:39pm
Gonna pull an FE for a moment.

90 year old man returns fire during home invasion, now has to defend himself in court.

/America

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/suspect-in-california-burglary-sues-homeowner-who-shot-him-after-break-in-and-attack/2012/10/24/df527744-1e01-11e2-8817-41b9a7aaabc7_story.html?wprss=rss_social-nation-headlines&Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Gonna pull an FE for a moment.

90 year old man returns fire during home invasion, now has to defend himself in court.

/America

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/suspect-in-california-burglary-sues-homeowner-who-shot-him-after-break-in-and-attack/2012/10/24/df527744-1e01-11e2-8817-41b9a7aaabc7_story.html?wprss=rss_social-nation-headlines&Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost

That's just insane. I remember a law professor covering self-defense. He basically said, you're better off killing the guy, because there's a decent chance you will lose when your attacker sues you for injuring him while protecting yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 4:36pm
There are plenty of people who have survived multiple hits from "real" calibers, and there are plenty of people who have died from hits that shouldn't be immediately fatal. Like OS said terminal ballistics are hit or miss.

I honestly think it all boils down to whatever you are comfortable with. If you want to bet your life on a small, hard to grip, hard to manipulate weapon with bullets of questionable effectiveness, then go for it. I prefer something that has a better user interface.

FE, what are your extra powerful JHP's? Why don't you run them exclusively?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 8:23pm
I can't find them anymore... And I shot the others I had, as I figured I could just buy more.
 
I always like to shoot my hollow points just to make sure they feed correctly. But, then it was impossible to find more like that. I did get some more hollow points, but they don't expand like the originals I had.
 
I also realized my Kel-tec holds 8 rounds not 7. They don't sell the .32 anymore and the new .38 holds 7.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 10:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 11:16pm
If I ever felt a true need, I would go familiar, M1911A1,.45ACP, nough said.

BTW the U22 is a sweet shooter, mid size frame, good handling, accurate and easy to hold on target. Hit well at 15-25m, hit the pie plate on my rifle range at 50m consistant.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2012 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

Like OS said terminal ballistics are hit or miss.

If you're forgive me being a pedant, I think it can only be fairly said that terminal ballistics concerns itself with 'hit' Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2012 at 12:02am
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

If I ever felt a true need, I would go familiar, M1911A1,.45ACP, nough said.

Specs? I'm a big Series '70 fan myself. My dad has one that was heavily upgraded by my grandfather, easily my favorite firearm of all time.
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