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Waiting on CWP to come in. Need advice.

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usafpilot07 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2012 at 11:23pm
Aren't you a decent sized guy Tolga? I borrowed a buddy's SuperTuck and with a decent sized shirt on, I felt like my FNP40 was really well concealed. If you have the frame for it,you conceal just about anything, as long as you don't wear girl jeans and extra medium shirts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2012 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Aren't you a decent sized guy Tolga? I borrowed a buddy's SuperTuck and with a decent sized shirt on, I felt like my FNP40 was really well concealed. If you have the frame for it,you conceal just about anything, as long as you don't wear girl jeans and extra medium shirts.

I'm tall and look thin with a little bit of flab that I'm working on eroding. I don't wear anything skin-tight, but it is quite form-fitting with enough room to breathe and maintain flexibility. When Winter is in full-swing, I'll be able to keep the FNP under a jacket using an OWB holster without a problem. I do want the option of being able to conceal with a shirt and shorts, so pocket size will be ideal for all situations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 2:02am
Can the 12 guage idea for home defense. Get a 5.56mm carbine.

Lighter, so more people in the family can use it, less punishing to shoot so you'll practice with it more, less user input to keep it running, more shots on tap if you need them, quicker to reload if you have to, bullets only go where you want them to - not thrown around randomly like shotgun pellets/wads. Shotguns need just as much aiming as any other weapon.

Think about it logically. You're gonna need what the cops use. What is it that most SWAT teams are armed with? Because you'll be pretty much doing SWATS job before they can arrive. Mostly these days the shotgun has fallen out of favour to be replaced with 5.56mm's.

The TLR-1 is a decent light. I personally do not like the switch setup on the TLR-1 and would prefer the DG switch on the X300. Although this can be solved with the Streamlight Contour Switch, so that is fairly moot. The nod goes to the SF X300 Ultra simply because of the output it has. 500 lumens vs 160. The base X300 puts out 200+ vs 160. IF you think saving the $100 is worth what is an inferior product then go for it. There isn't anything "wrong" with the TLR-1 and many many people have used them to good effect, it just isn't top dog on the street.

I personally used a TLR-3 for my Glock, but it has since died. Will be replacing it with a different brand because the TLR-3 design is flawed, but it was a good piece of kit.

Stop listening to OS right now. He is giving you some BAD advice. Not only that, he is contradicting himself.
Quote And you don't have to hit them, a few wizzing by the brain housing group will get them to rethink the whole process.

Quote , put two .22's winging by his head

Quote Also a .22LR does not have the penitration for a through and through, so you do not have a loose round flying around that may hit an innocent in the AO. Bad things happen when they do.


You are responsible for every round you fire. If you shoot to "miss" you are saying you are happy to throw potentially lethal objects who knows where. There may be a time and a place where this is safe, but waiting for the right circumstances is almost akin to avoiding being attacked in the first place.

Many places in the USA also consider any use of a firearm "lethal force". If you even just brandish the firearm many places will make the "lethal force" claim. Actually SHOOTING the gun will definitely get you in their sights. Now, as he said, you aren't trying to kill him? Then why are you using lethal force? You will NOT be justified in shooting at him.

And now you put 2 in his braincase while trying to "send them wizzing by"? It's murder if you aren't justified in shooting him in the first place.

Even if you do get a through and through, something not likely to happen with a decent defense load, it'll be less lethal than a .22 fired off into the wild blue yonder.

A .22 will not be more accurate than a 9x19mm at close range. It may have easier to handle recoil and it may be easier to put the follow up shots on target, but this in indicative of lack of training. Besides if you need 15 .22LR's to do the job of two 9x19mm's......

OS is correct that aiming will beat spraying most of the time.

Get the light, get a holster, get some training. From people who are respected in teaching this stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 8:44am
Training dictated that during that shooting I had a 'backstop' ie a big tall brick building, behind the shooter. The old masonry of NYC will absorb the rounds. At the time during the UC work could not risk losing the main target over a street punk.

Many untrained civilians 'panic' shoot rather than think out the scenario. Now if the 'kid' had a larger caliber, I would of center massed, a .22 soft lead hollow points are lethal at the range we were at. The expansion creates a massive shock cavity at 10-15m, that is what drops the bad guy. A 'holdup' scenario where the target already has a gun trained on him/her is not a pull out a big gun and hope the shooter is dumb enough to let you have all that time. My operative plan is the drop the wallet, and as I go to pick it up go for the ankle holster and the .22, again it is not hollywood, and the Murphy Law is out there.

Also having been at bookings of 'defense' shooters the 'panic' shooter has a far more difficult time 'justifying' where all his rounds went. Yes in an urban enviornment thinking about it can give you an adequite 'backstop', BTDT.

I disagree, a untrained, never exposed 'panic' shooter will do better with the low recoil of a .22 than a 9mm, proven on ranges all the time as we progress from .22 to get the feel of a handgun, to the larger calibers. Now throw in a potential 'shoot back' target rather than a faceless piece of papaer accuracy goes to ....
Handguns are not accurate over 15m in a combat situation to start with, nature of the beast. Military as well as Law enforcement reviews of shootings bear this out. I was terrible in the gun house training with the M-9 (92FS), and we were in the 2-5m range.

The problem with 5.56 as home defense and short range is the problem the military still expieriences the round is so small and fast at real short range the rounds pass through the target and the 'shock cavity' is minimal, something to do with physics. In Vietnam we had to put a few in targets close to be sure, and in Iran/Afghanistan the same complaint even with the heavier round. The SKS or Mini 30 in 7.62X39, better 'knock down' at short range.

Kayback, have you ever been in a firefight at short range....there is really no correct solution, just what you are comfortable with. My primary of the time was a M1911 but that was overkill in NYC, the .22 was more mission capable for what I was doing, and it worked out well and still does as my carry piece. And I have yet had cause to pull it since I left law enforcement. Many people can shoot large calibers at paper, a pop up shoot back is a whole differant scenario.


PS. Real hitters 'love' the .22 for close range work The Berreta 21 or the Ruger walk up close, two in the brain housing group, keep walking as target drops to ground. They are working a .22 hit in Omaha right now, big street crowd, local or heard the the shooter in all the street noise, a 9mm would have been a cannon shot and drawn attention.





Edited by oldsoldier - 22 October 2012 at 8:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 9:08am
My daily carry is a p.32 Kel-Tec which holds 7 shots. First is a regular 32 round nose, next three are hollow points, and final 3 are some seriously nasty personal protection hollow points. It easily fits in your back pocket. I carry it on my "wallet" side in a pocket holster. I've pulled it out twice in situations, but never had to fire it other than at my shooting range...

I always have a Ruger .22 Mark 1 & 2 pistol within reach at home. With hollow points, 11 shots on the Mark 2 and 10 on the Mark 1. I target shoot all the time with those guns, and they are amazingly accurate. I can hit within 4 inches at 150 feet with either of those guns. You can ask the groundhogs that were tearing up my yard, how well they shoot... Oh wait, no you can't as they are all dead now. 

I also have a S&W 9mm for home protection, loaded with 17 personal protection hollow points per magazine. And I have four magazines for it ready to go. 

I took my youngest out shooting this weekend for her first time firing a gun. (12) I started her out on a few of my rifles, and her first shot ever was 1 inch from dead center. Second shot, BULLSEYE! Using my bolt action .22 Marlin. She liked my lever action Marlin best, So I just added a scope on it for her. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 10:24am
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:




PS. Real hitters 'love' the .22 for close range work The Berreta 21 or the Ruger walk up close, two in the brain housing group, keep walking as target drops to ground. They are working a .22 hit in Omaha right now, big street crowd, local or heard the the shooter in all the street noise, a 9mm would have been a cannon shot and drawn attention.





If someone tried to give that advice at one of our CCH classes, I would seriously consider asking them to leave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 10:54am
Just stating how 'hitters' prefere the .22, and how effective it is close range, not advocating using it that way for 'self' defense. People 'amatuers' diss the .22LR but it is a great pick for the up to 15m issues.

Just find it funny watching the CCH types with huge auto pistols strapped, and no clue on what the issues will be during a 'real' firefight. We have a interesting individual in our game group strapped with a .40S&W, why? and the nutjob does not have the safety strap hooked, dropped it as it fell out of his holster in a crowded game store, and there was one in the pipe to boot. His logic is if he had to pull it did not want the delay on unstrapping it. Idiot, and he took the class too.

I define 'hitters' as the proffesional problem eliminator of the less than legal type, not joe bob on the street.


Edited by oldsoldier - 22 October 2012 at 11:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 11:05am
OS- We're talking self-defense, not gangland hits. .22's are plenty lethal (eventually) and a hit to the CPU with a .22 will put almost anything down, but in a self-defense situation, you're supposed to be stopping the threat (center mass), not stopping it from getting up to sue you. It would seem like your proposed trade-off in shootability of the caliber is negated by the need for shooting at a smaller and more legally questionable target. I've shot porcupines with a .22 enough times that I needed to reload without notable effect, and I doubt they're tougher than a guy on PCP or whatever bath-salts are. 

As for the 5.56 as a house gun, that's going to have to depend on building material and bullet selection. Not that I have the experience of OS, but I was under the impression that M855 fragmented reliably ONLY at shorter range (<200M with 20" BBL, <150M with 14.5") and tended to pass-through at longer range. The bullet selection available to civilians would seem to negate this. Ballistic tips seem to turn woodchucks into furry bags of hamburger just fine at 25 yards. Having 30 rounds on tap instead of 7 or 8 in a shotgun sounds useful, and I'm aware of how much a pattern expands at indoor ranges (not much), but there's something comforting in knowing that if you only get off one round, it's going to be a big one. I don't see myself in any type of HD situation that doesn't involve hunkering in my room until the cops show.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 11:07am
 
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

PS. Real hitters 'love' the .22 for close range work The Berreta 21 or the Ruger walk up close, two in the brain housing group, keep walking as target drops to ground. They are working a .22 hit in Omaha right now, big street crowd, local or heard the the shooter in all the street noise, a 9mm would have been a cannon shot and drawn attention.


I see where you're coming from with your points, but I'm not out to assassinate anybody. That kind of kill requires exactly what I wouldn't try to do in a self-defense scenario... sneak up on a guy, put the barrel a half inch from his skull, fire a shot and walk away.

With enough training, I could probably narrow down a 9 mm group to something useable. I get good groups with double taps on my FN. The only thing holding me back with training is the price of admission to shooting clubs. Some of these places have entry fees of over $600. It's better than a single lane, but I couldn't make up for the cost with the limited free time and wages I will have up there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 12:16pm
People just were questioning the lethality of the .22LR. I use, like I said a Berretta Model 21 .22LR as my CCW, getting a U22, because I know the issues and what I can expect in a true up to your armpits in alligators, pockets full of raw meat situation. A chest shot with a .22LR hollow point will kill, and will drop the motivation level of the bad guy suffieciently so you can disengage. The idea of the exercise is to disengage, not do a Wyatt Earp gunfight. Center mass with a .22 at 15m is not a hard feat to accomplish with minimal practice. Believe me the bad guy will prefer to disengage, and quickly once you no longer are an 'easy' target, nature of the beast.

As for practice, a field with a tree and three paper plates, two large and a small desert plate on top in a snow man setup will get the targeting down of center mass. Place the stack on a paper sheet with the outline of a mansized target with the snowman in the middle where all the 'good' places to hit are.

Do quick pulls and fire, displacing after each shot a foot or two left or right, standing still on the recieving end never leads to 'good things'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:



Just find it funny watching the CCH types with huge auto pistols strapped, and no clue on what the issues will be during a 'real' firefight. We have a interesting individual in our game group strapped with a .40S&W, why? and the nutjob does not have the safety strap hooked, dropped it as it fell out of his holster in a crowded game store, and there was one in the pipe to boot. His logic is if he had to pull it did not want the delay on unstrapping it. Idiot, and he took the class too.


I define 'hitters' as the proffesional problem eliminator of the less than legal type, not joe bob on the street.


My two handguns are a carry sized .45 and a full size .40s&w. Now, I'm probably a little bit above average size(6'1, 205-210ish) but I have zero problems concealing the 40 on my person while wearing an XL shirt.

And even better? With the 40, it means I'm carrying 15 rounds in the most comfortable platform I've experienced. If you can conceal it, you're trained with it, and you're comfortable with it, THAT'S what matters. Not the eventual lethality.



I just can't think of a solid argument for anyone(other than maybe a VERY small individual) to carry.22 when you can find most other calibers in the same size platform. If you prefer the round, it's certainly your right, but I don't think it's a good suggestion to give others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 1:59pm
Why such a large framed gun and a large caliber. The odds are you will never pull, let alone fire it under the circumstances you fear. As a cop our most feared call was 'man with a gun', as we poked our noses around the bodega door to see a customer with the obvious bulge in the back of the belt, and a concerned store keeper looking at us, and momma on the phone in the back somewhere calling it in. Was it legit an off duty cop or CCW citizen, or a wanna be criminal just not interested in the bodega today.

The "Rambo" gun owner is a cops worst fear, because of the potential of over reacting and lack of training and innocents in the AO. Some of the DD-5's Ive read in my career of citizen shootings would not pass a shooter review board of any PD, and the instances of innocents getting struck were not pretty as big bullets from an untrained or disiplined shooter did big damage.

There is NO reason I can think of for anyone to carry a piece of artillery, when a BB gun will work.

My suggestion as an ex cop as well as having been in real fire fights is for Joe Citizen NOT to carry, for the odds are you will over react and bad things will happen. Even trained seasoned cops do stupid things at times, lets just increase the odds of idiocy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 2:48pm
"My suggestion as an ex cop as well as having been in real fire fights is for Joe Citizen NOT to carry, for the odds are you will over react and bad things will happen. Even trained seasoned cops do stupid things at times, lets just increase the odds of idiocy."

I don't agree with OS on much of what he says but I like this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 3:00pm
My CCL is being processed as I write this, and once its issued, I largely have no plans on carrying in public.
That could change if I get some sort of training and exposure to usage, but you're right. Someone armed with only a pistol and a constitutional right and no education is probably apt to cause more problems than solve with a concealed weapon.

I'm not saying I'll NEVER carry, but right off the bat? No way. Especially considering that I'm not legally allowed to have any sort of trigger time- including for training purposes once its issued.

To each his own though.

In light of this thread however, I was looking at some of the small frame rugers and am pretty impressed with them.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 4:13pm
I was never questioning the lethality of the .22. They can kill. They just are not the best round or weapon for CCW.

I have been in various firefights in my life, in various different guises. The last shooting I was involved in involved a beach, a 60lbs Rotwiler and my daughter. 124 grains JHP at 1200fps beats 30 grains at 1000fps any day of the week when you need to stop 60lbs of muscle, teeth and naked aggression.

Carrying a firearm isn't always about stopping a mugging. It is about being prepared to deal lethal force if the situation requires it. Shooting near or around the dog wasn't an option. And I honestly doubt it would have dissuaded it.

Kudos to you for having a correct back stop when you shot to miss. Like I said though that is almost like hoping you would not be attacked in the first place. I did not have a clear backstop in my last shooting, it is not something you can count on having.

There are many reasons to having a larger gun over a small one, the easiest one I can think of is simply having enough gun to grip. The .22's are all small and cramped. There is space on a larger gun to make them ergonomic and user friendly.

The .22 is a rimmed cartridge. There is always going to be issues with loading those in a semi auto pistol. If the magazine isn't staggered properly the rounds simply won't feed past eachother, as well as various other issues. If your larger framed weapon has an issue it is easier to grip and manipulate. Doing a tap rack on a .22 isn't always easy.

I agree with you 100% about the untrained. As you will see in my post I suggested getting training from reputable people. Getting to know how to run your pistol properly is a must. Getting exposure to the stress of "real" shootings is most important.

Not very many people have the "mean geene". It is quite hard to make people switch from law abiding citizen to killer, but that is what you need to do if you want to carry a gun around with you, know you can make that switch. It is not easy, and I know of no training that will make it easier, however propper training will make you less of a liability if the S does hit the F.

As for the lethality of the .22, REALLY? Massive temporary wound cavities? Who/what have you been reading that leads you to believe that? Look at the 5.56mm. It is also a nominal .22, at ~65 grains and running near tripple the speed of the .22's. Those barely do what you are talking about. Heavier and faster but still not the magic bullet you claim the .22 is. I've seen people take multiple hits from the M193 (our duty loads) and not stop being a threat instantly. A .22LR can kill, as can the common cold. I would not want to rely on it in an emergency.

15m with any pistol should be the minimum you can do. There is nothing magical about the .22 that makes this possible. A 9x19mm can do it. If you don't want harsh recoil messing with your follow up shot, shoot it our of a full sized M&P and run non +p ammunition. If it takes you more than a couple of seconds to draw, aim and fire multiple rounds into the center mass at 15m, you simply aren't training enough.

As for the 5.56mm for home defense, yes, hunkering down and waiting for the cops is what you do, but you can't always do that. I have children in the house which I may need to fetch. Carry a 2 year old back to your room and use your 12 guage effectively. With the 5.56mm you can shoot 30 times before it becomes an issue. (20 if you use smaller mags to save weight). You may also get injured. Runnning a pump action with only one had isn't as easy as Sarah Connor makes it out to be.

Like OS said, you'll likely never use it, but a decent holster and decent training means you can carry a pistol around without it being a hinderence, just in case.

Your miliage may vary, but I think I do NEED to own a firearm and carry it with me. We do tend to have more violent criminals here, but I feel I would be failing in my duties as a parent if I was not willing to do EVERYTHING I could to protect my family.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 4:36pm
OS, you were NYPD?

Also, I wouldn't shoot a 5.56 indoors, because I dont want to kill my neighbors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 4:36pm
Wound balistics are hit and miss. The 5.56 be it the Vietnam era 55gr to the more modern 62 and 65gr have the same problem close range, too fast, and the issues arising from Vietnam to Afghanistan bear this out. The round passes through too fast for good cavitation.

My round for CCW is the .22LR soft lead hollow point, no jacket. Reason being the expansion and lack of potential through and through. I shoot varmits here on the farm, with these rounds out of my 10/22 and a coyote at 30m litterally 'explodes' with a chest or belly shot.
The round is deformed and 2-21/2 times diameter, and a massive 'jelly roll' around the bullet, the internal organs pulverised.

I do go to some of the more seedy areas of NYC on my visits, and never worried about bad guys. I define a firefight as shoot back targets, big dogs don't count

Home defense I use a cut down, folding stock Mossberg Police Special Purpose 12ga, same size as my CAR-15 extended, and the physcological effect of joe badguy hearing that racking of the round is usually defense enough, as they will head to an exit asap.

I have a Berreta M-9 readily available as well as my M1911, as well as momma and her PPK for home defense, or the zombie appocolypse whichever comes first. Along with my M1A (M-14), M1 Garand, 91/30, M1944, K98, Arisaka 99, LE MkIV, 45/70 Buffalo rifle, .54 Sharps, MH1873, and more. But personal preference and expierience still has my little Berretta M21 .22LR as my CCW.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 4:54pm
Wound ballistic are hit or miss. With a .22 you are more likely to miss.

I am really interested in your views of the 5.56mm. Like I said I've used the equivalent of an M193 round a couple of times. I have seen it work like the hammer of Thor, I have also seen it require multiple hits to drop a threat. Like you said, wound ballistics are hit or miss. One thing I have seent that is consistent though is the closer a target is, the more likely it is to act like Mjolnir.

I'm sorry to see you pulling an FE on the discussion. I did interpret the term "firefight" to incluse the times I have shot at something that did or did not shoot back. By your definition you using your .22 against a .25ACP that was all elbows and poop chute's doesn't count either.

Carrying a firearm isn't about only stopping muggers or shooting people. There are other threats around that need shooting. It is easier to fight off an attacking Rotweiler with a firearm than with bare hands. That is something to think about if you want to carry a firearm.

Again with the magical psychological workings of a shotgun racking. I've honestly never had that happen, and I've been both sides of a shotgun. It has helped me locate my target and it has helped me diffuse a situation, so it may or may not work. You know what also works wonders? Hitting your target with 200+ lumens of white light and if it is a threat applying high velocity attitude changers.

I shoot birds with .22. My brother needed them for research. I have used high velocity, low velocity, LRN, HP, Stingers and myrriad of firearms to do it. I have yet to see any of this exploding you talk about. I have shot birds as small as finches and as large as gineafowl. I've recovered plenty of bullets. (he has, he's the one cutting them up) and never has there been any evidence of super cavitation, super expanding heads or such. I'll hunt around at home and see if I can find some of the Stingers that we recovered, they and the Federal opened up the best, and they were probably about 50% larger than the original .22 head.

KBK
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oldsoldier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 6:00pm
Studies conducted by the armed forces found that the original 55gr 5.56 did not have a good knockdown power at shorter ranges, taking multiple hits to ensure the target was down. A long time ago and far, far away I shot at the local VC or NVA and observed strikes (that puff of 'dust' as the round stikes clothing) and the target kept moving, and I suspect shot back a time or two. It was comman practice to put a few more rounds into any prone figure we could see.
In 2006 the army also had to address that in the short ranges of the urban combat in both Iraq and later Afghanistan the issue 62gr 5.56 bullet still passed through the target too fast without the cavitation to take the target down with one round.

Now jacketed or partial jacketed hollow point .22's maintain shape and do not expand as much as non jacketed soft lead hollow points. .22 Long Rifle RWS Subsonic 40 Grain Lead HP by Umarex is my prefered 'varmit' load. Soft lead, hollow point, subsonic so energy disapation is within the target as round does not pass through usually. Try em if you can get em. Umarex is real soft lead, softest I've ever seen.
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impulse418 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 7:12pm
Another caliber war. Awesome.


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