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stratoaxe 
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 Posted: 13 October 2012 at 11:03am |
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Job creation isn't humanitarian it's economic. If you have X amount of dollars you can afford Y amount of employees. If you raise X, Y goes up. If you lower X, Y goes down.
This obviously is way oversimplified, but the idea behind conservative tax plans is that more money = more growth. That's the trouble I have with the left on the topic of the economy...some of them act like jobs just magically pop out of thin air because screw it that's how it works. In reality jobs exist to expand production, and production is only expanded via growth in income.
So between the multi-million dollar corporations and some dude's home lawn care business, which one would you pump money into to create jobs?
I'm not saying Jethro's Lawn Care and Bug Service doesn't matter because it certainly matters to his family and to the local community, but when you look at unemployment numbers you're looking at a massive quantity and to affect that percentage you need to enhance the market in massive ways.
The government NEVER enhances the market. It NEVER promotes growth on its own. It NEVER does anything but TAKE. That's economics 101...any job the government creates was created out of someone else's money that was taken from them without choice. So if you can promote growth in the private sector you get a higher rate of return with less loss than the highly inefficient big brother doing your accounting fo ryou.
And I'd tend to agree with what Romney said in the debate-with the way businesses classify themselves it's almost impossible to separate Jethro's Lawn Care from Nike or Adidas. Your classification as a small business or corporation isn't necessarily determined by the amount of money you make-so to raise taxes or cut loopholes for one you generally are going to affect the other.
Besides, you're looking at success through a punitive light. "X company is so huge they should be forced to give up more of their money. I'm small so I deserve to be given back more of my money." Companies work off of bottom lines-if you hurt the bottom line of a large business they cut jobs. When they cut jobs far more people are affected than when Jethro buys a cheaper set of blades.
You have to continue your logic chain though. The left tends to like the idea that all negative things stop on Bush's doorstop, but the fact is that the "X inherited" argument just keeps going backwards. Bush inherited the near popping housing and dot com bubbles from Clinton.
And all that good stuff Clinton did? He inherited it from Reagan.
Every president inherits something from another, that's where they're supposed to put on their big boy pants and do some good things that they can take credit for. Obama has very little of those.
FACT-all administrations "enhance" job statistics. The pretty way of saying it is that they all report them differently, the truth is that they lie. Unemployment is still a terrible problem.
You can't be serious.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but the Democrats can only blame Bush for so long until their own failures bleed through.
I think Bush was a poor president, but for the same reason as I dislike Obama-he did very little GOOD. The bad is up for debate...I think he made some bad decisions for sure, but I wouldn't blame the economy, unemployment, etc on him. I blame him for not working to decrease the deficit, I blame him for massive money to failing banks, I blame him for the PATRIOT Act, and I blame him for poorly representing our country to the world post-9/11.
But I can blame Obama for almost the same things. Obama did next to nothing to stop the NDAA, did next to nothing to work against the PATRIOT Act and bailouts, and has simply increased the deficit instead of lowering it.
So my opinion is that it's time for a new leader. Is Romney that person? I dunno, but this one isn't working out.
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oldsoldier
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Posted: 13 October 2012 at 10:38am |
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Wow, NY'r sure proves that the New York 'liberal' education system is working as desired. He hit basically all the standard taught 'talking points'. Wait till he is out there raising kids, paying taxes, essentially 'grown up' and see if the perception changes.
Gotta love a State where a "city' can decide what you can drink, and how much...yea Republicans are trying to rule your life....riiiggghhhttt. BTW I am a transplanted to Nebraska long time New Yorker. I inheirited a large farm in Davenport, NY, and sold it cause the high taxes did not equate to the minimal services rendered. |
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Lightningbolt
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Posted: 13 October 2012 at 5:26am |
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Oh noz yer conspiring a conspiracy against the all mighty truth tellers.
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Obonga vs Wrongney-cage fight 2012
Cage fight 2016-Jesse Ventura vs. ? |
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Rofl_Mao
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 10:59pm |
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CNN sucks.
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NYer
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 9:44pm |
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My problem is when the news or any agency looks at information and that information tends to support Dems the Repubs call it their cheerleader.
I refuse to beleive the entire media is in the DEM pocket- thats called conspiracy theory. CNN the week before BASHED obama all week for his debate performance thats the same group that called Ryan a giant liar! They even went as far as to say the new unemployment rate of under 8% is a lie - please everything that proves them wrong is a lie and I cant buy it. Anyway my issues are simple although I think Ryans comments on abortion were horrible im not a girl and honestly im slightly selfish and care less. On Healthcare I think both groups offer a decent plan but DEM - GOVT will lower WASTE, REPUBLICANS - COMPETITION of private sector vs Govt care will lower WASTE. Personally like stated above I feel Companys main focus is to bottom line costs not to humanitarian focus. No matter how flawed the government is at reaching its goals their goals are more humanitarian, so I lean with them on this... and in fairness the obama care money which Ryan tried to mislead us as stolen from medicare was actualyl just waste they cut!!! so in terms of them saying they will cut waste well you know what ok not a bad start I say let them try. The other issue I have is economy and taxes. Republicans count companys making millions as SMALL businesses, and use that loose word to claim Obmaa will hurt small businesses. Where as Obama tax proposal really helps not hurts small businesses which they define as making under $250K. I am a small business and since I make less than 200K both plans will give me cuts but I lean Left because I dont think donald trump bill gates etc need tax cuts again their focus is not humanitarian so tax cuts wont inspire jobs it will inspire thank yous and more private jets! Lastly according to CNN and a few studys the TAX PLAN Romney stated needs to be paid for, which mathimatically requires cutting loops holes that help middle class and small businessess (the type making under 250K)[ME] Now Romney did say thats not true but still havent stated where the money is coming from. Anyway last 4 years did suck to some degree but really the last 12 sucked Obama inherited a TON of CRAP and lathough he didnt fix it he did help it a little and I think if more of his ideas were voted on instead of philibustered he could have done more. Fact unemployment shrunk not as much as he wanted but some Fact our FAKE war on iraq ended and he got Osama Does the state of affairs suck - yea but is it slowly getting better at home and abroad yea slowly.. Remember he is undoing 8 years of Bush EVIL ! so there is my vote and my two cents thanks for reading |
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stratoaxe
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 8:51pm |
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I do agree that some demonizing of the tea party has been exaggerated. I don't see them all as buck toothed bubbas out trolling for minorities and gay boys to whoop up on and I'm sure there are plenty of intelligent people in the movement.
The trouble is that any cause without a purpose will fall to the same corruption that affects the parties. The tea party's attempt to be a nonpartisan grassroots movement is very silly when they clearly endorse right wing agendas-small government (except for gay marriage), less spending (except for the military), and fewer restrictions on the free market (this part I'll actually give them.) Now, I love one of your questions because it brings up the kind of dilemma I found myself in when I began shifting from my far right tendencies (they're loud and proud on this forum, by the way...I could have been the tea partier in chief)
This brings up a very interesting contradiction that the right faces. First you have
See, the trouble is that the left paints big business as an evil overlord almost to Marx levels of oppression while the right paints them as good intentioned bastions of the free market being oppressed by the left. But business really lies somewhere in between. It's a self interested entity that happens to make up the most important part of our society's existence as a free market. You can't live without business, but you can't trust business to put people over profits. This is where government comes in. Let's look at this statement-
See, I agree with you 100%. This is where the Republican in me hates the Obamacare plan...I don't think business should be forced to take on the massive brunt of American healthcare. But the liberal in me says the government should be responsible for this. Why? Because the government simply reallocates money. It does very inefficiently and with alot of legal theft, but in the end the goal is to move money from the individual to a service. Health care is that kind of service. If the government offers universal healthcare business is still able to thrive only under an increased tax rate. But then Republicans are like WAIT! RAISE TAXES! ERMAHGAWRD YOULL DESTROY THE FRIGGIN MIDDLE CLASS! WILL SOMEBODY THINK OF THE MIDDLE CLASS! You can't have it both ways. Somebody has to be responsible for healthcare-if you want the individual to be responsible for the health care then the only way he or she can do so is through an employer. But the employer is not going to want to provide the high costs of modern insurance. So by Republican logic, the employer shouldn't be forced to and the government shouldn't be forced so in other words poor people should just not be treated for sickness. Because like it or not, a large portion of our market is unskilled labor or those with degrees that are no longer viable and these people can't afford 40K medical bills and 500 dollar dental / medical visits. There has to be a solution-in the end society will bear the brunt of medical costs be it through emergency care, insurance, or god forbid, simply losing population. The tea party likes to pretend that the free market will take care of these people. But the market isn't an individual it's a system made up of self interested people. If you want to see unregulated market tendencies look at the industrial revolution. 12 year olds working 60 hours a week, people losing fingers and limbs and being forced out of their way of life and being immediately replaced. These are basic protections the government provides through regulation and I see health care in the same way.
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choopie911
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 5:37pm |
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I don't think those are outtake photos, or trying to hurt them. They're not even that new as far as I know. I just think it's hilarious, that outfit alone is great.
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FreeEnterprise
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 3:03pm |
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The tea party has been demonized more than Sarah Palin... And that is saying something.
example... http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/12/columbia-panel-on-occupy-tea-party-movements-was-unbalanced-affair-critic-says/ But, as a member of the local tea parties, and a business owner, who talks to other business owners daily. I know what businesses think. Everyone I talk to who is involved in the tea party is totally different than the caricature that is presented by the liberal media. Moving the Republican party to the right a little would help our countries spend less, and live within their means, how is that a bad idea?... Right now I could put in a press that would do the job of 4-9 temporary employees that I hire each day. It would cost me about the same money that I am paying now. (even when considering the capital investment in the $600,000 press). And hiring one employee to run it full time. Notice I said "temporary" employees, because the liberals have crippled my ability to hire employees. Certainly full time employees. As now I have to pay a massive amount of money for healthcare and other costs, if they work for my company. This is an unskilled labor need, (scrapping out die cut projects) where the people don't need a degree or level of mechanical skill. They just show up and pull paper apart for hours on end. Most of the people doing this job have NO business experience at all, many don't even have a high school diploma. And this is the group hardest affected by the "obama economy". A machine will do this automatically, but those guys would then be unemployed. So all those people that NEED a job right now, would lose that job... So I have to choose what to do... In the past, I would have hired a few full time, but with Obamacare it costs too much once you add in the minimum wage, AND full healthcare, as well as all the other costs per employee. It is cheaper for me to pay $12 an hour to pay a temporary service company to send me people each day... That is a huge problem and I am just a tiny company... Imagine that same issue all over the country and you can see why we have such a massive unemployment problem. It would actually save me money if I used a machine... If taxes go up... Guess what. I have to cut costs. Goodbye temporary employees, hello press. Which equals more jobs lost due to liberal "good intentions".
Edited by FreeEnterprise - 12 October 2012 at 3:23pm |
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stratoaxe
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 2:18pm |
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Had you stopped right here, I would have given you applause sir. I'd say that this is the essence of conservatism...wanting the market to make the choices and the government to have as little as possible intervention in the market. Of course the as possible is where we'll all disagree, but I think your concerns are valid regarding the direction of modern politics. I disagree that it's a Democrat specific issue, and of course I am fairly socially liberal, but I think your points are the gist of why I vote Republican 9/10 times. But then you said this...
I've said it a thousand times, but the Tea Party is so far to the right they make Reagan look like a liberal. They're being held accountable to standards they never agreed to.
But you've posted alot of great points here so I think we can agree to disagree on this one
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FreeEnterprise
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 12:35pm |
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The liberal media calling a conservative "lying" when they both have completely different views is partisan hackery.
You are stacking the deck if you believe either party's cheerleaders. Politics are all about mudslinging. The democrats have the media and college professors who champion their cause, and the republicans have business leaders, twitter, and a large portion of the web/talk radio. But, ignore all of that noise, and look at where we are as a country. The democrats when in charge will spend more money than anyone else in the history of the world... No budget, wasting money on projects all over the country that don't actually "fix" anything. I live in Cincy, and part of the money that Obama has spend went to a new streetcar system here... To go from the hood of Cincy into town and back to the hood in a nice tiny loop. It is pandering to democrat voters, as the city of Cincinnati can't afford to keep the pools open, and they have NO CLUE how they will pay for this new railway. Shoot Metro buses are losing money so fast it is crazy... So they are spending money that will only cause MORE money to be spent forever to keep it going, even though it will be a crime magnet, and who can't walk a couple blocks?... People won't pay the "true" cost to ride it, so it is again another waste of money, that will just keep sucking tax dollars away from the city. Every project that has "good intentions" ends up TAKING money from a taxpayer to pay for... And when you take from someone, they get sick of it, and will produce less, so you TAKE less. If you vote for the democrats, you are supporting government takeover of healthcare, manufacturing, education, energy, and every other business as they are the party of big government, and you not being able to keep YOUR money, but giving it to them so they can spend it FOR you as you are too dumb to figure out how to spend your own cash... Republicans aren't much better, but still... They pass budgets, and with the Tea Party rising up, they are starting to be held accountable... I can't imagine voting for Obama after looking at our economy for two seconds... It makes no sense unless you trust government. Everything they do is a huge waste of money and ineffective, are we actually safer from the TSA? Does the post office waste money? Is your social security in a "lock box" or spent?... Ever wondered what Biden was scribbling between his guffaws? well wonder no more... Clearly a "deep" thinker. One heartbeat away...  Edited by FreeEnterprise - 12 October 2012 at 1:23pm |
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oldpbnoob
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 11:38am |
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AP put out something simliar:
Seemed pretty even to me. Honestly, I toss out anything having to do with religion or abortion because I just don't care.
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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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NYer
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 11:32am |
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Im gonna share my opinion and I hope I dont regret it. I do plan to vote for obama biden.
I dont think the smirking or interupting is what matters here - the issues do. Biden would say he did that because Ryan LIED alot! Ryan would say Biden tried to cut him off cause he was speaking the truth. Obviously they will disagree. I think the best part of the debate is the post debate Reality Checks that CNN has. They take each point where there was clear disagreement and they do the research and present it to the audience. Each issue has one side calling the other a liar, so I think judging a debate on who might be a better liar or choosing to beleive one side over the other on style or their "words" is the wrong method. The CNN reality check I saw 5 of them before bed were all in favor of Biden and CNN literally PROVED Ryan was lying. That was powerful. You can call CNN liars I guess but that is too much conspiracy theory for my blood. If you would like to see what I mean go to the web either google or CNN and look for what they call "Reality Check" It literally stated with PROOF that Ryan was LYING! |
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edward d'andrea |
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Mack
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 11:00am |
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They can use it as input for their speeches. |
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oldpbnoob
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 10:56am |
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Gonna have to agree on both parts. The "my friend" thing got on my nerves quickly. I only got to watch 10 minutes or so before the remote was sweet talked out of my control to watch some of the shows we have DVR'd from the prior week, but I though Biden came off as a total jerk off. Granted, I have never had a very good impression of him, but last night was particularly annoying. The smirking and laughing at everything Ryan said was totally unprofessional and he came off as a chuckle head. I did DVR the entire thing and may go back and watch it today if I have a chance.
I had to cringe last time voting for McCain with the thought of Palin taking the reins if something happened, I think I'll listen to that cringe this time.
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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Lightningbolt
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 10:45am |
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And then there's romney pulling his multiple one liner, stand up comedian act on letterman last night. I had to keep asking myself if that was really him our a stunt double.
With that ridiculous stunt and biden's laughter during topics such as nuclear war, I really feel that the wrong people are holding positions of authority. |
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Obonga vs Wrongney-cage fight 2012
Cage fight 2016-Jesse Ventura vs. ? |
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 10:40am |
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I hear ya. I enjoy chatting about this stuff, and I don't have to go in for office hours until 1 p.m. (My students are working on their first-ever news stories, so I'm expecting the HEEELP brigade to hit early and often) so I've got time to chat through some stuff.
Ehh. I think country-wide economics are almost always going to be too big to smush down into simple math (Something both sides have been doing lately).
Confiscated in what sense?
But I think this goes back to the idea that running a country based on simple business math doesn't really work. I think that if this analogy was correct -- the one that keeps getting kicked around -- then anyone with a mortgage would be incorrect for spending anything, ever. A mortgage is, after all, a given actor being quite a bit in the economic hole on paper for a very long time. But, it's a forward investment. By taking out a mortgage, it allows you to have a home so that, even at its most simple concept, you have a place to live in order to have a job. It also creates asset.
I'm just not quite sure a country of our size could ever possibly do anything -- especially not exist on the global scale -- without using a forward deficit and debt.
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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oldsoldier
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 10:31am |
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Whale, just points not proposals. It's math, all the money from the 'rich' in this case, if 'confiscated' hypothetically.
And the economics classes I took as well as bussiness math emphisised that your income must be at least as great as your expendatures for any chance of success. Any time your income is less than your expendatures, it is economically a 'failure'. And yes we have been in faiure mode for the most part since around 1863 when the Civil War costs far more than was being taken in, and we just keep repeating the process with far greater consiquences each time. I do hope you do not have a meltdown in November if and when Obama/Biden lose...which is looking more likely by the 'polls' Democrats were so fond of when thier candidate was on top, now there are not that important, strange. Personally I want the polls to show Obama just ahead, knowing human nature if the average Dem sees Obama in the lead they may go 'we are good' and not vote, more of a trend now than ever. Edited by oldsoldier - 12 October 2012 at 10:34am |
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 9:59am |
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Economics.
Something nobody has proposed. |
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 9:57am |
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Yep. The VP debates historically don't do much unless one candidate is really out there, like Palin's winking. And even that didn't show a direct drop in the polls, it just brought up the questions about her into the light.
I don't think you're using the word "most" in its correct intention.
Ok, so let's assume that you were correct, that most of it simply "went to government workers," what did they do with it?
That's largely not the intention of those jobs, either.
Whut?
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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oldsoldier
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 9:17am |
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Actually got bored watching it. Biden being the 'bully' in the room, interupting at leasure and then the smirk if Ryan interupted him at all.
Biden just droned on with the standard, yet proven wrong on so many levels Democrat economic plan. How can taking more from the private sector, and spending far more than you take in solve a economic issue already with a negative balance, and all you want to do is increase that negative balance. Again totally confiscating the wealth of those 150,000 extreme 'rich' families runs this administration and current government for what 98 days at current spending levels. Biden on foriegn policy contridicting the current 'story line' of Libya from the administration was a real revealing moment. Biden came off as rude and condensending, and the smirk and smile really showed another form or arrogance from Biden, combined with the Obama debate arrogance, and their popularity is dropping, how can that be, they are the smartest men in the room, or so they think. Again another "Lessor of the two evils presented" election, and the majority will just decide who they hate more over real substance. ABO |
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