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Another one. Eesh.

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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Have you guys been watching "Stars earn stripes"?


I burned my TV years ago to stop the liberals from brainwashing my cats.

Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

I'd take Todd Palin ANY DAY OF THE WEEK


Hey, we all got our fantasies bud.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:


I don't know how they do it in Cinci, but around here, it's simunitions.


Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


What you're probably thinking of is the Simunition FX cartridges.




I already said it man, why you gotta go getting all detailed. BTW, you know they sell that stuff to civies now right?

Fun story. Buddy of mine who worked at FBI HQ for a few years was on a training exercise where they had to clear a cargo ship. He's last in a stack of 4 going through a bulkhead door and the guys in front didn't properly clear the room. Dude who is tucked up against the bulkhead which they miss has a SMG and lights Brady up from 5ft in the back. Took the medic 45 minutes to dig all the simunition rounds out of his back.

<Shrug> That's why we teach the first two guys in to dig the corners. I betcha they learned a damned good lesson out of that one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 1:36pm
I'm no psychologist, buti can't see paintball doing much to train the mind to look past shooting at a human being with a gun, in the long run anyways. Itd be no more than the temporary effect video games have on the mind, I would guess.

Fun fact about the training CHLs and lower get, though; the NRA suggests(especially for new shooters) that instructors use pie plates or circular targets, because even a silhouette can be too subconsciously intimidating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 2:53pm
Gun fighting and defensive shooting are two very different creatures.

Many can probably do the latter to save their hides. Actively getting into the first is hard for most people. Cops and normal people often don't have the mean gene or are too hesitant to throw the switch to "kill".

Being nice and avoiding conflict is too deeply ingrained.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 3:23pm
I personally feel that qualifications for ccw should be raised. when I was involved in training people for qualifying I saw some people do some really stupid things. If it's bad enough they are asked to leave and some that didn't have the skills and seemed like they will neverget it slipped through the cracks. It was enough for me to realize that teaching people that don't know what they're doing isn't for me. Too dangerous. The first priority at my club is trying to convince people not to obtain their ccw. And when the prosecuting attorney rep speaks during week two they really do a fantastic job of trying to discourage people from obtaining.

Edited by Lightningbolt - 27 August 2012 at 3:28pm
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usafpilot07 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I personally feel that qualifications for ccw should be raised. when I was involved in training people for qualifying I saw some people do some really stupid things. If it's bad enough they are asked to leave and some that didn't have the skills and seemed like they will neverget it slipped through the cracks. It was enough for me to realize that teaching people that don't know what they're doing isn't for me. Too dangerous. The first priority at my club is trying to convince people not to obtain their ccw. And when the prosecuting attorney rep speaks during week two they really do a fantastic job of trying to discourage people from obtaining.


During week 2? I thought our one day, 8 hours + range time was a drawn out bore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 4:55pm
Nothing against the NYPD, but there is a strong feeling out there that the department really doesn't know how to train/arm people. A new recruit has the option of a 9mm Glock (17? I really dont know Glocks), a S&W 5906 variant, and I believe a Sig P226 all with absurdly heavy triggers and minimum training. AD's were so bad that NYPD logic was "Increase the trigger pull!" to something like 13lbs. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 5:00pm
Negligent discharge*
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Well, it is a good thing that only the officers and the criminal were armed... Because clearly the officers would be able to take him down without anyone else being hit by their bullets. 


Oh wait. 

Looks like the officers actually did accidentally shoot some bystanders...

We better just ban CCW anyway, since the cops clearly would never just shoot into a crowd if they might hit someone innocent. 


What is your argument here?


Just pointing out the obvious. In the theater shooting, liberals were spouting off about how if there were ccw people in the crowd then people would have missed the shooter and injured innocents. 

Because CCW's people aren't capable of handling a firearm like a highly trained officer who would never shoot an innocent person, when aiming at a criminal.


Except... Anytime ANYONE fires a gun, someone innocent could get shot. It is part of the danger in our society when criminals run rampant, as they don't have to worry about the public being able to protect themselves. 

I am a proponent of carrying firearms, however consider this.  It's a big crowd, everyone is CCWing.  The guy shoots his boss, and all of a sudden 50 people draw their handguns and fire 2 shots.  That's a lot of lead flying through the air and I would bet that more than 11 people would have been shot in the confusion. 
Especially if it was a dark smoke filled theater with low visibility and 100's of people yelling and screaming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by SSOK SSOK wrote:

AD's were so bad that NYPD logic was "Increase the trigger pull!" to something like 13lbs. 




Because when the NYPD switched from revolvers, with a long and heavy DAO trigger, to pistols such as the Glock with short light trigger pulls, too many of the older cops still staged their triggers having had the long pull of the revolver ingrained in to them.



Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

That's like me saying I'd rather have a decorated Navy SEAL than a week one private. Cleary, it's true, but it's also not feasible in most scenarios.


It's quite feasible actually, considering the vast majority of cops never fire their guns outside of the target range, let alone anything remotely considered stressful.


Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:


I think you missed my point, sir. Every time there's a shooting the first thing you hear from gun advocates is "OMG IF THEY'D HAVE HAD A CCW THEY'D BE ALIVE" but I think that there are far too many variables to make that statement.


And every time a shooting takes place, an anti-gun activist states if CCWs had their guns, more people would have been shot in the crossfire, even though there is not only no evidence to back that up, but as you stated, too many variables to even attempt to make that statement.

Edited by Linus - 27 August 2012 at 5:56pm

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usafpilot07 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:



Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

That's like me saying I'd rather have a decorated Navy SEAL than a week one private. Cleary, it's true, but it's also not feasible in most scenarios.


It's quite feasible actually, considering the vast majority of cops never fire their guns outside of the target range, let alone anything remotely considered stressful.




How many USPA experts that are able to shoot under duress versus in a controlled match environment are out there CCW'ing? Is THAT a larger number than there are police officers who are mentally and physically prepared and trained for such a situation? Because if so, I'd be pretty surprised.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by SSOK SSOK wrote:

Nothing against the NYPD, but there is a strong feeling out there that the department really doesn't know how to train/arm people. A new recruit has the option of a 9mm Glock (17? I really dont know Glocks), a S&W 5906 variant, and I believe a Sig P226 all with absurdly heavy triggers and minimum training. AD's were so bad that NYPD logic was "Increase the trigger pull!" to something like 13lbs. 





They don't. And the fact the mayor is a raving anti gun lunatic doesn't help.

Cops generally aren't gunfighters. Cops carry guns because every so often they have to use them. They are more likely to use pens, paper, radios, possibly handcuffs and flashlights. Very very small percentages of any cop's duties, besides maybe SWAT, actually involve firearms and their use.

Cops SHOULD get trained to be hard charging door kicking face shooters, so if they ever need to do it, they do it well.

Standards used to be shot at 25 yards. The average standards range these days is closer to 7 yards. Because people aren't trained to shoot properly, so to increase pass rate you make the targets easier.

A handgun is easily accurate out to 75 yards, without much effort. It does require more skill the further out you go from that, but pretty much anyone who carries a gun should be able to make consistent body shots at 50m.

People still don't understand technical aspects of shooting, like sight offset. I've heard people say if you adjust your zero for an AR (which has a sight over bore height of 2.5" IIRC) to zero at 7 yards you don't have to worry about offset. And that's from instructors.

The NYPD has something like 35000 officers. Training them can't be easy. Training them well is almost impossible.

A 16lbs trigger (what the NYPD Glocks and Sig's have) make accurate shooting much much harder. It isn't impossible, but target pistols have light, crisp triggers for a reason. Preventing ND's isn't about making the act of shooting harder, it is about basic training.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 6:33pm
Problem Solved:


One in each precinct break room and you're good!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 6:51pm
The gun disassembly phone app keeps your skills honed too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2012 at 12:07am
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

 
Cops generally aren't gunfighters. Cops carry guns because every so often they have to use them. 


This has nothing to do with anything relevant, but I've been watching The Wire through for the first time, and I'm almost through 3.5 seasons, and the only police who have fired a gun is one guy, three different times, twice by mistake. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2012 at 12:17am

I know quite a few cops and only know 1 who has fired his gun.

These scenarios seem frequent because of news coverage, but when you figure how many cops are in each city and how many cities there are you realize only a small percentage will ever see action. That's why there are SWAT / rapid response teams out there who generally experience a more high stress training, but you simply can't prepare for every event that could happen.
 
It's why the "we should train cops for X scenario" doesn't really work because, for the most part, the skills police utilize are more human relations than attacking. In fact, just going by sheer statistics, cops would do better to simply train on avoiding being hit by cars on traffic stops that training in gunfighting.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2012 at 12:28am
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

Preventing ND's isn't about making the act of shooting harder, it is about basic training.

THIS.

Trigger weight shouldn't matter, because you keep your damned finger out of the trigger guard until you have intent to fire. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2012 at 9:08am
http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/customer-shoots-robber-dead/nRLjK/


Would robberies increase or decrease if the story above became a common result of criminal action?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2012 at 11:34am
There would be more robberies . . .





. . . because if this happened more often the gangs would use it as an initiation tactic with survivors getting to join the gang and the less competent getting weeded out.  It would be like Darwinism for street gangs and we would end up with super-gangs that no one could control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2012 at 11:49am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/customer-shoots-robber-dead/nRLjK/



Would robberies increase or decrease if the story above became a common result of criminal action?


That's a loaded question because one would first have to agree with the assumption that consequence ties directly to crime rates.

Which I would not agree to.

You could violently torture all petty criminals and there would still be petty crime because the assumption is likely that they won't be caught / killed.
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