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usafpilot07 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

There would be more robberies . . .





. . . because if this happened more often the gangs would use it as an initiation tactic with survivors getting to join the gang and the less competent getting weeded out.  It would be like Darwinism for street gangs and we would end up with super-gangs that no one could control.




I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. Even the most violent of gang initiation rituals("jumping in," for example) don't tend to be so risky. Gangs thrive because the communities they are embedded in see them as an extended family, not because those trying to join are thrill seekers.

While I don't think it would cut down on the number of gangs that make someone rob a person/store for membership, I don't think it would be connected to a rise in such activities either.
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Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/customer-shoots-robber-dead/nRLjK/



Would robberies increase or decrease if the story above became a common result of criminal action?

This question isn't really valid because it's impossible for all similar situations to end in the same result. Really an "if the world were perfect" scenario.
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Criminals don't think of the consequences of their actions before committing them, so it would have no impact on robberies.  That is why people still commit murders in states where the death penalty is still used and why the "3 strikes"  laws such as California's don't work.
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I really am in favor of much more stringent requirements for obtaining a permit. Six months of training seems about right. That would be before receiving the permit. Too many people that are not capable or properly trained carrying. I've seen it. even with thorough training some just don't listen or aren't cut out for it. Dangerous
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Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Criminals don't think of the consequences of their actions before committing them, so it would have no impact on robberies.  That is why people still commit murders in states where the death penalty is still used and why the "3 strikes"  laws such as California's don't work.

I doubt it's the reason there repeat offenders. A lot of these people aren't stupid. They're taking calculated risks. Their environment influences them to ignore that risk, especially when a situation becomes desperate. They know they could be shot or put away, but they don't care. There's a reason many run at the first sign of resistance. If they get hurt, they go to a hospital (or don't... then die), they get discovered and put away.

Considering gangs: they amplify these tendencies.  They condition their members to enjoy the idea of being a career criminal. To the worst cases, there's a strange sense of pride to be put in for life. The guys at the top of the highest gangs are serving 23 hour a day lockup and have enormous power. To them, the power they feel is worth the pain of their incarcerations. These guys are the brains that indirectly influence or force people to start a criminal lifestyle, which keeps the cycle going.

Even those who didn't want gang life in the first place get forced to do its dirty work both in and out of prison. It's not easy to refuse to rob a place if the sick guys in the higher ranks know where your family is.
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Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I really am in favor of much more stringent requirements for obtaining a permit. Six months of training seems about right. That would be before receiving the permit. Too many people that are not capable or properly trained carrying. I've seen it. even with thorough training some just don't listen or aren't cut out for it. Dangerous

I would gladly take situation based training as a requirement for CCW. Anything from basic marksmanship to simulated encounters (and the BEST, not most violent way), to handle things from muggings to shootings or even non-violent events could be covered. It could make the self defense training industry boom in the states that do this, so long as the classes aren't overpriced and have mandatory guidelines to follow regarding the appropriate action to each situation.

Basically, it should be consistent among all training facilities, demand yearly maintenance of currency, be economically viable, and should involve force on force events that stress self preservation instead of spec ops style direct action. We have government mandated training guidelines and certificates for the public use of any moving machine of substantial weight (because mishandling can cause damage and death). Why not extend the same to firearms in public?

The problem, of course will be political resistance.

The far right will deem it unconstitutional, that there should be no standard for bearing arms in public. To an extent, I agree with this. Having a rifle on your back while walking home from a hunt or a range, even walking through a grocery store, should be no big deal. There are towns where open carry is normal and incidents are rare. Still, a standard, responsible behavior for those who carry is not something that the untrained person possesses (hence why I rarely have a gun with me in Juneau).

The far left will complain that the state is sponsoring the training of future mass shooters. It's not the case, but when has the fringe of any group ever been completely sane and logical?

There can be a way to make this happen, and I look to vehicles because that's what I know.

Training can be performed by private organizations. To become an examiner, you need to pass an evaluation which proves you meet safety and proficiency standards, as well as the ability to evaluate others' abilities to perform the required way. I don't think teachers should have to be certified. Training can happen by anyone, because there's a comprehensive test. The NRA training is not near enough. 

A prospective CCW holder meets with an examiner and other applicants to perform a series of tests including weapon maintenance, target shooting, knowledge of CCW regs, and simulations of the real world using simunitions and the other applicants as gunmen/actors. Since the response can't be concretely graded, intent of action should be the primary guideline for success.

One experience I really think should be required is the active shooter scenario in the training space large enough for a few dozen beginner CCW students with rooms, walls, doors, etc. At an unexpected point during simunitions training, an actor takes a real gun loaded with blanks (the sound is what matters here) and just starts shooting wildly. The first guy who he points at should be a plant and have squibs in his shirt.  Whatever happens, it would result in a very useful observation every time about how people would react in the real world. Students will learn how they would react when it gets real, how others will react, and everyone will learn what happens when a bunch of untrained CCWs are responding to the same threat. If done correctly, it will likely validate why training is necessary and will probably help develop new training techniques. If done incorrectly (like ABC did), then it will be a waste.
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In other news
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Great points tolgak. The potential liberal position that extended firearms education will lead to future mass shooters can be paralleled to sex education in schools will lead to mass prostitution.

Law breakers aren't going to wait for the law to change so they can begin breaking laws.



Edited by Lightningbolt - 29 August 2012 at 8:33am
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Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

There would be more robberies . . .





. . . because if this happened more often the gangs would use it as an initiation tactic with survivors getting to join the gang and the less competent getting weeded out.  It would be like Darwinism for street gangs and we would end up with super-gangs that no one could control.




I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. Even the most violent of gang initiation rituals("jumping in," for example) don't tend to be so risky. Gangs thrive because the communities they are embedded in see them as an extended family, not because those trying to join are thrill seekers.

While I don't think it would cut down on the number of gangs that make someone rob a person/store for membership, I don't think it would be connected to a rise in such activities either.


Note to USAF:  Have humor detector checked for operational status.
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Many states have training requirements for obtaing a CHP or CCW, whatever your state calls it. In this state one must take a class and learn about the statutes concerning use of deadly force and when  DF is permissible. Attendees have to demonstrate proficiency with the weapon they choose. Without satisfactorily completing the class, one cannot obtain a CHP. The class is one of the requirements along with a fingerprint card, and complete background check.
Of course the right to defend oneself or one's family is a common law right. Obviously the big controversy (courtesy of the Hoplophobes) is using a firearm, specifically a handgun for self defense.
I have also heard the liberal argument that if one shoots someone trying to kill or rape you, the subject is being deprived of his/her right to due process.  Go figure!
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Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:


Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

There would be more robberies . . .





. . . because if this happened more often the gangs would use it as an initiation tactic with survivors getting to join the gang and the less competent getting weeded out.  It would be like Darwinism for street gangs and we would end up with super-gangs that no one could control.




I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. Even the most violent of gang initiation rituals("jumping in," for example) don't tend to be so risky. Gangs thrive because the communities they are embedded in see them as an extended family, not because those trying to join are thrill seekers.

While I don't think it would cut down on the number of gangs that make someone rob a person/store for membership, I don't think it would be connected to a rise in such activities either.


Note to USAF:  Have humor detector checked for operational status.


Damn thing must be on the fritz. It seemed like a reasonable enough assumption that I could picture someone believing it.
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^^^ I'll take that as a compliment.
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All this talk of permission slips.... So grateful.
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I could get behind some sort of training requirement for CCW Permits, even if it meant lengthening the process.

Here in NY, though, they're more interested in the MONEY rather than responsible ownership.
$3 for the application pickup
$50 for the 5 hour course
$105 for the fingerprinting

Wait....

Permit granted, then its $10 for every pistol you add to your permit.

That's it. No training, no nothing. As long as you pass the background and mental health checks, you're able to pick up a pistol and carry it concealed in the upper counties of NY. You can walk through a Walmart with a pistol under your coat and never have EVER fired a round out of it or any other gun in your life.

I'm all for gun ownership, as I've made clear before, but there's just something not right about that. In fact, there's something downright scary about it.


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Yeah Reb Cpl it's a crazy world out there. The south counties and LI you can't even get a CCW unless you are rich or famous.
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Originally posted by clownshooter clownshooter wrote:

Yeah Reb Cpl it's a crazy world out there. The south counties and LI you can't even get a CCW unless you are rich or famous.


Nor is an upstate permit any good down there. LI, NYC, and I think Westchester County...


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Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by clownshooter clownshooter wrote:

Yeah Reb Cpl it's a crazy world out there. The south counties and LI you can't even get a CCW unless you are rich or famous.


Nor is an upstate permit any good down there. LI, NYC, and I think Westchester County...

Pistol Permit for ownership, Yes in Nassau and Suffolk Counties. CCW I will check my handbook about.
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Originally posted by Ceesman762 Ceesman762 wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by clownshooter clownshooter wrote:

Yeah Reb Cpl it's a crazy world out there. The south counties and LI you can't even get a CCW unless you are rich or famous.


Nor is an upstate permit any good down there. LI, NYC, and I think Westchester County...

Pistol Permit for ownership, Yes in Nassau and Suffolk Counties. CCW I will check my handbook about.


Separate for CCW. They stressed this numerous times in the course I took a few months back.



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You shouldn't have to pay for a permit or license to have a firearm. Period. 

You know, freedom...

I'll leave this here, since we all know this will be a national story by tomorrow... Oh wait.



Edited by FreeEnterprise - 30 August 2012 at 3:35pm
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If you don't want violent criminals to have guns, you have to have licenses.  If you have licenses, you have to pay for the paperwork and manpower to issue them.  That money is going to come from taxes, or fees.  Either way, you are paying for it.
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