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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

The old standby of "if they'd had a CCW they'd be alive" is illogical for alot of reasons and I honestly believe that statistics wouldn't back up the idea.


Don't know about you, but if I'm anywhere in the vicinity of a bad guy shooting at people, I'd much rather have a firearm on me than not, as it gives me not only options, but something to fight back with if it is so called for.


So while you may not believe that standby, I believe the one of "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". Shoot, Illinois is the biggest anti-gun state in the US with concealed carry being illegal, yet Chicago is also the deadliest city in terms of firearm deaths... Just this weekend they've had 7 killed and 24 wounded. While 2000 US soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan since 2001, over 5000 people have been killed in Chicago from guns in the same time period.





You're missing the point of what we're saying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 5:58pm
No, I'm really not.

Quote Don't know about you, but if I'm anywhere in the vicinity of a bad guy shooting at people, I'd much rather have a firearm on me than not


Edited by Linus - 26 August 2012 at 5:58pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

No, I'm really not.

Quote Don't know about you, but if I'm anywhere in the vicinity of a bad guy shooting at people, I'd much rather have a firearm on me than not


And no one here is arguing that point. In fact, I don't think theres been a single anti-CCH comment in the whole thread.

What we're discussing is that in the event of an active shooter, like Aurora or NYC, a CCH holder is not adequately prepared or trained to combat the threat.(Versus say, a bank robbery or mugging attempt where there are fewer innocents that you may injure in your response to the threat)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 6:18pm
And who's to say who's adequately, or rather inadequately, trained just because they have a CCW/CHL/CCP/whatever your state calls it? Some LE agencies do minimal firearms training. There are CHL holders that shoot hundreds of rounds every week.

I'd rather have say, an IPSC champion, or an Olympic gold medalist in shooting, over Bubba from Hobunk Arkansas that's never had to draw his firearm under stress.



And no, I'm not advocating a bunch of people form a fire team outside movie theater doors and rush back in to stop the threat... but to say it would have been 'impossible' for someone to have fought back correctly is assuming something you have no proof on.

Edited by Linus - 26 August 2012 at 6:20pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 6:39pm
A blanket statement that all ccw aren't qualified for given situations is too broad imo. I also cannot base my opinion of peace officers' abilities because local law enforcement was banned from my club for shooting a bunch of holes in the ceiling and tearing up walls and barriers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:04pm
I have a decent sized response I'd like to post, but can't get it through, again. Anyone have the list of banned words?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:13pm
Copy/paste to note pad then eliminate one suspect word at a time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

A blanket statement that all ccw aren't qualified for given situations is too broad imo. .


At the time of issuance, its not in NY.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:40pm
What if someone from ny receives extensive out of state or private training?
There's no way everyone in ny is laying down to that scenario.

Edited by Lightningbolt - 26 August 2012 at 7:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

And who's to say who's adequately, or rather inadequately, trained just because they have a CCW/CHL/CCP/whatever your state calls it? Some LE agencies do minimal firearms training. There are CHL holders that shoot hundreds of rounds every week.

And there are LEOs that do the same. The only difference is that LEOs at least have some minimal experience firing in stressful conditions.

I'd rather have say, an IPSC champion, or an Olympic gold medalist in shooting, over Bubba from Hobunk Arkansas that's never had to draw his firearm under stress.

That's like me saying I'd rather have a decorated Navy SEAL than a week one private. Cleary, it's true, but it's also not feasible in most scenarios.

And no, I'm not advocating a bunch of people form a fire team outside movie theater doors and rush back in to stop the threat... but to say it would have been 'impossible' for someone to have fought back correctly is assuming something you have no proof on.



No one here is arguing against CCH. I am unequivocally in support of CCH rights being expanded. We're simply talking about when and where CCH is most effective, and in my opinion, it is not duking it out with a gunman in the middle of Manhattan.

Are there CCH holders who are an exception to this? Absolutely. I wouldn't think that needed to be said. Obviousously, there a CCH holders who are combat veter ans, world class marksmen, or hell, maybe both.


My entire point from the beginning of this thread was just that FE's argument of "see, the police accid.entally hurt someone. Everyone should be allowed to carry because it couldn't be worse," was a flawed argument in support of a cause I like.

That was rather arduous on the iPad.wow, Tippmann... The word veter ans? Really?


Edited by usafpilot07 - 26 August 2012 at 8:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

The old standby of "if they'd had a CCW they'd be alive" is illogical for alot of reasons and I honestly believe that statistics wouldn't back up the idea.


Don't know about you, but if I'm anywhere in the vicinity of a bad guy shooting at people, I'd much rather have a firearm on me than not, as it gives me not only options, but something to fight back with if it is so called for.


So while you may not believe that standby, I believe the one of "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". Shoot, Illinois is the biggest anti-gun state in the US with concealed carry being illegal, yet Chicago is also the deadliest city in terms of firearm deaths... Just this weekend they've had 7 killed and 24 wounded. While 2000 US soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan since 2001, over 5000 people have been killed in Chicago from guns in the same time period.





I think you missed my point, sir. Every time there's a shooting the first thing you hear from gun advocates is "OMG IF THEY'D HAVE HAD A CCW THEY'D BE ALIVE" but I think that there are far too many variables to make that statement.

Look at it in medical terms. Someone dies from a heart attack and a family member says "if they'd only eaten healthy they'd still be alive." While that may very well be true, eating healthy is simply one of thousands of factors that play into heart health.

So simply having a gun doesn't really mean alot. Soldiers that carry guns, grenades, and knives are killed every day. Hell, I'll take it a step further and say that even being a good shot is meaningless if you can't put those skills to use under pressure. I'd take bubba from Arkansas over an Olympic shooter any day if bubba had stared down the barrel of a loaded gun and walked away in one piece.

For a more practical application, look up buck fever. Years of shooting does nothing to prepare for your first shot at a real deer-just like years of porn did nothing to help us our first time with a girl.

So while yes, having a weapon is better than not, USING said weapon can do alot of good or just flat out get you killed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 9:56pm
I was trying to find a statistic on the percentage of peace officers that actually have been in a gun battle which is something that may elevate their skill set above a civilian with extensive gun training and came across this.not sure what to think about the site. Not advocating just sharing

http://actionamerica.org/guns/guns1.shtml
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

What if someone from ny receives extensive out of state or private training?
There's no way everyone in ny is laying down to that scenario.


Private, in state training pre-license is a felony. There are no provisions in state law that allow for trigger time before license issuance- even for training purposes.

out of state- I'm not sure. I guess the state can't do much about it if you go out of state and get some kind of training.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 11:23pm
Thank God that criminals abide by the law in ny because if they didn't, law abiding citizens would actually have to know how to protect themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 8:06am
There is a reason police officers train with paintball guns...

Just sayin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 9:35am
Yeah, because your mates tend to frown on you when you blast holes into them during force on force training.

Just saying....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 9:44am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

There is a reason police officers train with paintball guns...

Just sayin. 


I don't know how they do it in Cinci, but around here, it's simunitions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 11:28am
I haven't asked my cousin in a while, but a few years ago he told me they were using paintball guns (course they were just like regular guns same number of shots and everything... so not "paintball" like we think, I don't know the official term for them). 

But, aiming at another human and pulling the trigger is something that paint ballers do every time they play. 

Put two people in a shooter situation, one guy who has poked holes in paper for all his experience, and another who has combined shooting paper targets, AND shooting live targets in paintball, and I would bet that the paintball player would be a much better shot at a live target, and if he played limited ammo with magazines, I bet he would have a MUCH better consciousness of how many shots he had left too.


I have no evidence that proves any of this, it is just logical. 

Saying a police officer is better in this situation every time, is just silly. Some officers are bad, just like some CCW carriers are bad... 


Have you guys been watching "Stars earn stripes"?... I'd take Todd Palin ANY DAY OF THE WEEK over most police officers I have met in a shooter situation...

Some people just have a natural aptitude toward shooting, and it doesn't matter if they have a badge or not, they are just good shots. 


And then you have those cops who opened fire and hit 9 innocent bystanders...


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 27 August 2012 at 11:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

There is a reason police officers train with paintball guns...

Just sayin. 

Not a chance in hell they conduct meaningful training with paintball guns, for a whole host of reasons.

What you're probably thinking of is the Simunition FX cartridges. It's a low powered plastic round fired from service weapons, with a collapsing coloured soap filled tip that marks what it hits and stings like hell. But no self respecting training officer would use paintball- because it's not just taking aim and pulling the trigger, but all the other operations of the firearm that matter too.

Paintball *may* be used as an enemy force guns to reduce the safety kit officers have to wear, but if the officers are doing anything with paintball guns in their hands, someone needs to be replaced.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2012 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:


I don't know how they do it in Cinci, but around here, it's simunitions.


Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


What you're probably thinking of is the Simunition FX cartridges.




I already said it man, why you gotta go getting all detailed. BTW, you know they sell that stuff to civies now right?

Fun story. Buddy of mine who worked at FBI HQ for a few years was on a training exercise where they had to clear a cargo ship. He's last in a stack of 4 going through a bulkhead door and the guys in front didn't properly clear the room. Dude who is tucked up against the bulkhead which they miss has a SMG and lights Brady up from 5ft in the back. Took the medic 45 minutes to dig all the simunition rounds out of his back.
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