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Another one. Eesh. |
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impulse418 
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Joined: 25 November 2010 Location: Phx, AZ Status: Online Points: 1494 |
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 Posted: 25 August 2012 at 9:46am |
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Because it happened to a wealthy person in beloved NYC |
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Remember these words. Bank Holiday.
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stratoaxe
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And my axe... Joined: 21 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6702 |
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 11:47am |
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Agreed. The old standby of "if they'd had a CCW they'd be alive" is illogical for alot of reasons and I honestly believe that statistics wouldn't back up the idea. There was a courthouse shooting here in Texas, I believe, where a guy opened fire with an AK-47 and a CHL carrier with a .357 attempted to stop him. The dude missed (likely due to a combination of distance and sheer panic response) and was shot while the criminal was on his way out. He'd probably be alive had he not attempted to save the day.
I'm not saying all scenarios turn out like this, but you have instances like Aurora where even trained teams of officers are unable to intervene safely. An untrained individual with a handgun has a high likelilhood of just adding to the chaos.
Alot of people don't understand the difficulty of shooting under pressure.
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 11:54am |
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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Mack
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 12:09pm |
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See, gun control would have made a difference. If the police hadn't been armed only one person would have died. (The gunman would have shot the victim then surrendered because he had done what he went there to do.)
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deadeye007
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 1:48pm |
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The Tyler Courthouse shooting could have been a perfect example of concealed carry saving the day, but the shooter was wearing kevlar an armed with a MAK-90. The man that returned fire (CHL instructor if I'm not mistaken) was armed with a 1911 and hit the shooter multiple times in the torso. Even though the CHL holder didn't stop the shooter he turned the shooter's attention away from a child that he was about to kill. So yeah the CHL holder would have stayed alive if he chose to hide, but the child would most likely be dead. |
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Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato
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stratoaxe
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 3:10pm |
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Ah my memory was fuzzy, its been a while. I suppose that particular case would do more to contradict my point than confirm, but I'd still hold on to my idea :)
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Kayback
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 3:24pm |
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No it still makes your point. There are always considerations like that. Act and you may make things worse, don't and you may not make a difference where it counts.
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Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2
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tallen702
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 4:03pm |
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I personally like this one for the pro-CCW end of things: Link
Reports are, dude hit the perp with his .357 at a pretty long distance (over 100 feet) |
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<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
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stratoaxe
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 4:22pm |
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Don't get me wrong-I'm totally pro CHL. I'll be getting one myself before the year's over. That's a good story, it's always nice when police and civilians can work together like that. I'd trust my life with a good .357 revolver out 25+ yards if I had to. My highway patrolman is damn near 30 years old and still drives tacks effortlessly.
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usafpilot07
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 4:42pm |
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Funny you added that part in, the SHP here carry .357 sig |
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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
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Reb Cpl
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 5:02pm |
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I need to get my father in law's take on this one- he works in the firearms and tactics division for the NYPD, and apparently lack of training is being cited for the reason behind so many bystanders being wounded by police officers.
I wonder if his section is going to get hammered because the suits are going to be looking to hang someone for this. |
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Rofl_Mao
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 5:46pm |
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Maybe they should be trained more.
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deadeye007
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 7:40pm |
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People need to learn when getting a CHL that you still have to pick your battles. A crowded Street or being severely out gunned are both situations that you need to use caution when deciding to fight back or not. The CHL holder in Tyler, TX waited for the right moment to use the element of surprise and return fire, but he didn't know that there was a kevlar vest under the shooter's jacket. It shows that you can do everything right, but still end up in a body bag. I think when it comes to CHL classes the seriousness of possible consequences are lacking. |
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Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato
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Lightningbolt
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Posted: 25 August 2012 at 9:45pm |
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With the high incidence of body armor being used by these nut jobs he could have considered aiming away from center mass. hind sight twenty twenty
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Obonga vs Wrongney-cage fight 2012
Cage fight 2016-Jesse Ventura vs. ? |
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Kayback
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Posted: 26 August 2012 at 3:48am |
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Failure drills. They exist for a reason. COM and reassess. If they don't go down, try something different.
It is one reason you need to be able to hit what you are aiming at, preferably under pressure. Even if it isn't armour, heavy winter clothing and somethings like drugs can make center mass shots ineffective. KBK |
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Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2
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Reb Cpl
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Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:17am |
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All this talk about CHL licenses- in NYC having one of those is practically impossible.
Even my NYS license (which should come through soon now) will not be valid in NYC or surrounding counties. And for classes? I think I've mentioned it before, but in NY there's NO pre-license classes that allow for any trigger time at all, because the state doesn't allow you to even pick up a pistol until you're licensed. LEGALLY speaking in this state, you should have your concealed carry license before you ever pull a trigger on a pistol. |
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stratoaxe
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Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:35am |
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This is something that amuses me politically-the preservation of individual states' rights. It's crazy how you can go just a short distance in America and wind up in a completely different political environment.
In Texas you can not only carry your handgun in your vehicle without a CHL, half the time they don't even ask any questions about it. I've been stopped a few times since I started carrying a handgun in my car and the police reactions ranged from "be careful carrying that" at worst to "hey that's a nice H&K" at the most amusing,
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Tolgak
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Posted: 26 August 2012 at 3:30pm |
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I'm all for carrying firearms. I've done it openly and concealed in Alaska a few times since I've been up here.
Problem with CCW is there's this "sheepdog" movement happening where people are told to carry to be protectors of the "sheep" (non-ccw/non-survivalist folk). There are youtube videos all over which show and describe tales of armed civilians responding to shooters, muggers, and robbers. The message being broadcast is to "be the armed hero." There's more than enough talk regarding how to respond, but I have yet to see training regarding teamwork with other CCW people to get everyone to safety. I have yet to see realistic talk about how to recognize and shoot a threat and when it is appropriate to take the shot. It's because the gun is seen as the solution, not the person. The saying: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." works both ways. The legal ccw handgun isn't going to seek out and kill a gunman, the civilian carrying it has to do all the work. I don't believe any more than 1% of people who carry firearms do anything more than plink at stationary paper targets a few times a month, while those who want to play hero are likely in the vast majority. Laws will not change any of this. People on both sides of the political spectrum will fight to the bitter end to oppose mandatory situational training as a requirement for CCW. Gun culture needs to change.
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 26 August 2012 at 3:48pm |
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The psychology associated with CCW is interesting.
That's not a judgement of it one way or another, just saying that the psychological/sociological component of how carrying a firearm might be able to alter someone's cognitive approach to a situation makes me wish I did real science.
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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Linus
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Posted: 26 August 2012 at 5:11pm |
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Don't know about you, but if I'm anywhere in the vicinity of a bad guy shooting at people, I'd much rather have a firearm on me than not, as it gives me not only options, but something to fight back with if it is so called for. So while you may not believe that standby, I believe the one of "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". Shoot, Illinois is the biggest anti-gun state in the US with concealed carry being illegal, yet Chicago is also the deadliest city in terms of firearm deaths... Just this weekend they've had 7 killed and 24 wounded. While 2000 US soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan since 2001, over 5000 people have been killed in Chicago from guns in the same time period. Edited by Linus - 26 August 2012 at 5:13pm |
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