Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Another one. Eesh.

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
Author
 Rating: Topic Rating: 1 Votes, Average 5.00  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
impulse418 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2010
Location: Phx, AZ
Status: Online
Points: 1650
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 9:46am
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

I don't see this as any more than a murder. A stupidly public one, but a murder.

People do that all the time.


Because it happened to a wealthy person in beloved NYC
Back to Top
stratoaxe View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
And my axe...

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6831
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 11:47am
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Definitely a terrible argument. Not to mention it was in Manhattan. At 9 am. There are retarded amounts of people there at 9 am....


I had written out a really well thought out follow up to this, but after about 30 tries, I can't get it through the spam filter.

The tl;dr is CCH is for personal protection, not emergency response. Civilians are not trained to respond to emergencies.
 
Agreed. The old standby of "if they'd had a CCW they'd be alive" is illogical for alot of reasons and I honestly believe that statistics wouldn't back up the idea. There was a courthouse shooting here in Texas,  I believe, where a guy opened fire with an AK-47 and a CHL carrier with a .357 attempted to stop him. The dude missed (likely due to a combination of distance and sheer panic response) and was shot while the criminal was on his way out. He'd probably be alive had he not attempted to save the day.
 
I'm not saying all scenarios turn out like this, but you have instances like Aurora where even trained teams of officers are unable to intervene safely. An untrained individual with a handgun has a high likelilhood of just adding to the chaos.
 
Alot of people don't understand the difficulty of shooting under pressure.
Back to Top
agentwhale007 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Forum's Vladimir Lenin

Joined: 20 June 2002
Location: GNV FLA
Status: Offline
Points: 11696
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 11:54am
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




Back to Top
Mack View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Has no impulse! control

Joined: 13 January 2004
Location: 2nd Circle
Status: Offline
Points: 9815
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 12:09pm
See, gun control would have made a difference.  If the police hadn't been armed only one person would have died.  (The gunman would have shot the victim then surrendered because he had done what he went there to do.)
Back to Top
deadeye007 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 12 June 2002
Location: Your Face
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadeye007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Definitely a terrible argument. Not to mention it was in Manhattan. At 9 am. There are retarded amounts of people there at 9 am....


I had written out a really well thought out follow up to this, but after about 30 tries, I can't get it through the spam filter.

The tl;dr is CCH is for personal protection, not emergency response. Civilians are not trained to respond to emergencies.

 

Agreed. The old standby of "if they'd had a CCW they'd be alive" is illogical for alot of reasons and I honestly believe that statistics wouldn't back up the idea. There was a courthouse shooting here in Texas,  I believe, where a guy opened fire with an AK-47 and a CHL carrier with a .357 attempted to stop him. The dude missed (likely due to a combination of distance and sheer panic response) and was shot while the criminal was on his way out. He'd probably be alive had he not attempted to save the day.

 

I'm not saying all scenarios turn out like this, but you have instances like Aurora where even trained teams of officers are unable to intervene safely. An untrained individual with a handgun has a high likelilhood of just adding to the chaos.

 

Alot of people don't understand the difficulty of shooting under pressure.


The Tyler Courthouse shooting could have been a perfect example of concealed carry saving the day, but the shooter was wearing kevlar an armed with a MAK-90. The man that returned fire (CHL instructor if I'm not mistaken) was armed with a 1911 and hit the shooter multiple times in the torso. Even though the CHL holder didn't stop the shooter he turned the shooter's attention away from a child that he was about to kill. So yeah the CHL holder would have stayed alive if he chose to hide, but the child would most likely be dead.
Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato
Back to Top
stratoaxe View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
And my axe...

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6831
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 3:10pm
Ah my memory was fuzzy, its been a while. I suppose that particular case would do more to contradict my point than confirm, but I'd still hold on to my idea :)
Back to Top
Kayback View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Ask me about my Kokido

Joined: 25 July 2002
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 4025
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 3:24pm
No it still makes your point. There are always considerations like that. Act and you may make things worse, don't and you may not make a difference where it counts.
Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2
Back to Top
tallen702 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Swearing on Facebook

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: Under Your Bed
Status: Offline
Points: 10949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 4:03pm
I personally like this one for the pro-CCW end of things: Link

Reports are, dude hit the perp with his .357 at a pretty long distance (over 100 feet)
<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
Back to Top
stratoaxe View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
And my axe...

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6831
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 4:22pm

Don't get me wrong-I'm totally pro CHL. I'll be getting one myself before the year's over.

That's a good story, it's always nice when police and civilians can work together like that. I'd trust my life with a  good .357 revolver out 25+ yards if I had to. My highway patrolman is damn near 30 years old and still drives tacks effortlessly.
Back to Top
usafpilot07 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
FreeEnterprise's #1 Fan & Potty Mouth

Joined: 31 August 2004
Location: Tokelau
Status: Offline
Points: 4447
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Don't get me wrong-I'm totally pro CHL. I'll be getting one myself before the year's over.


That's a good story, it's always nice when police and civilians can work together like that. I'd trust my life with a  good .357 revolver out 25+ yards if I had to. My highway patrolman is damn near 30 years old and still drives tacks effortlessly.


Funny you added that part in, the SHP here carry .357 sig
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
Back to Top
Reb Cpl View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
2010 Worst Luck award winner

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14004
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 5:02pm
I need to get my father in law's take on this one- he works in the firearms and tactics division for the NYPD, and apparently lack of training is being cited for the reason behind so many bystanders being wounded by police officers.

I wonder if his section is going to get hammered because the suits are going to be looking to hang someone for this.



Back to Top
Rofl_Mao View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
request denied

Joined: 27 October 2008
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3192
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 5:46pm
Maybe they should be trained more.
Back to Top
deadeye007 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 12 June 2002
Location: Your Face
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadeye007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

No it still makes your point. There are always considerations like that. Act and you may make things worse, don't and you may not make a difference where it counts.


People need to learn when getting a CHL that you still have to pick your battles. A crowded Street or being severely out gunned are both situations that you need to use caution when deciding to fight back or not. The CHL holder in Tyler, TX waited for the right moment to use the element of surprise and return fire, but he didn't know that there was a kevlar vest under the shooter's jacket. It shows that you can do everything right, but still end up in a body bag. I think when it comes to CHL classes the seriousness of possible consequences are lacking.
Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato
Back to Top
Lightningbolt View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
PHAT and PLAT

Joined: 10 July 2002
Location: Dean's List
Status: Offline
Points: 4884
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2012 at 9:45pm
With the high incidence of body armor being used by these nut jobs he could have considered aiming away from center mass. hind sight twenty twenty
Sent from a phone booth
Back to Top
Kayback View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Ask me about my Kokido

Joined: 25 July 2002
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 4025
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 3:48am
Failure drills. They exist for a reason. COM and reassess. If they don't go down, try something different.

It is one reason you need to be able to hit what you are aiming at, preferably under pressure. Even if it isn't armour, heavy winter clothing and somethings like drugs can make center mass shots ineffective.

KBK
Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2
Back to Top
Reb Cpl View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
2010 Worst Luck award winner

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14004
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:17am
All this talk about CHL licenses- in NYC having one of those is practically impossible.
Even my NYS license (which should come through soon now) will not be valid in NYC or surrounding counties.

And for classes? I think I've mentioned it before, but in NY there's NO pre-license classes that allow for any trigger time at all, because the state doesn't allow you to even pick up a pistol until you're licensed. LEGALLY speaking in this state, you should have your concealed carry license before you ever pull a trigger on a pistol.




Back to Top
stratoaxe View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
And my axe...

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6831
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:35am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

All this talk about CHL licenses- in NYC having one of those is practically impossible.
Even my NYS license (which should come through soon now) will not be valid in NYC or surrounding counties.

And for classes? I think I've mentioned it before, but in NY there's NO pre-license classes that allow for any trigger time at all, because the state doesn't allow you to even pick up a pistol until you're licensed. LEGALLY speaking in this state, you should have your concealed carry license before you ever pull a trigger on a pistol.


 
This is something that amuses me politically-the preservation of individual states' rights. It's crazy how you can go just a short distance in America and wind up in a completely different political environment.
 
In Texas you can not only carry your handgun in your vehicle without a CHL, half the time they don't even ask any questions about it. I've been stopped a few times since I started carrying a handgun in my car and the police reactions ranged from "be careful carrying that" at worst to "hey that's a nice H&K" at the most amusing,
Back to Top
Tolgak View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Master of MSPaint and bri's Daddy

Joined: 12 July 2002
Location: BEHIND YOU!
Status: Offline
Points: 1239481
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 3:30pm
I'm all for carrying firearms. I've done it openly and concealed in Alaska a few times since I've been up here.

Problem with CCW is there's this "sheepdog" movement happening where people are told to carry to be protectors of the "sheep" (non-ccw/non-survivalist folk). There are youtube videos all over which show and describe tales of armed civilians responding to shooters, muggers, and robbers.

The message being broadcast is to "be the armed hero." There's more than enough talk regarding how to respond, but I have yet to see training regarding teamwork with other CCW people to get everyone to safety. I have yet to see realistic talk about how to recognize and shoot a threat and when it is appropriate to take the shot. It's because the gun is seen as the solution, not the person. 

The saying: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." works both ways. The legal ccw handgun isn't going to seek out and kill a gunman, the civilian carrying it has to do all the work. I don't believe any more than 1% of people who carry firearms do anything more than plink at stationary paper targets a few times a month, while those who want to play hero are likely in the vast majority.

Laws will not change any of this. People on both sides of the political spectrum will fight to the bitter end to oppose mandatory situational training as a requirement for CCW. Gun culture needs to change.
Back to Top
agentwhale007 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Forum's Vladimir Lenin

Joined: 20 June 2002
Location: GNV FLA
Status: Offline
Points: 11696
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 3:48pm
The psychology associated with CCW is interesting. 

That's not a judgement of it one way or another, just saying that the psychological/sociological component of how carrying a firearm might be able to alter someone's cognitive approach to a situation makes me wish I did real science. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




Back to Top
Linus View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - language 6.29.10

Joined: 10 November 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7908
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2012 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

The old standby of "if they'd had a CCW they'd be alive" is illogical for alot of reasons and I honestly believe that statistics wouldn't back up the idea.


Don't know about you, but if I'm anywhere in the vicinity of a bad guy shooting at people, I'd much rather have a firearm on me than not, as it gives me not only options, but something to fight back with if it is so called for.


So while you may not believe that standby, I believe the one of "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". Shoot, Illinois is the biggest anti-gun state in the US with concealed carry being illegal, yet Chicago is also the deadliest city in terms of firearm deaths... Just this weekend they've had 7 killed and 24 wounded. While 2000 US soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan since 2001, over 5000 people have been killed in Chicago from guns in the same time period.





Edited by Linus - 26 August 2012 at 5:13pm

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.219 seconds.