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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by Whale Whale wrote:

I think that there needs to be a serious dialogue in the U.S. about rape and rape culture. The really grotesque thing about Akin's statement was the "legitimate rape," as if there are forms of rape that are somehow less legitimate. To me, it speaks to the heap of misconceptions this country has about rape -- that it mostly occurs by strangers leaping out of bushes at night, that the victim is at fault for any aspect of a rape, that the majority of rapes are violent acts, etc. 


100% agreed.

Rape statistics are an eye opener. My sociology professor spent a lot of time on real vs perceived trends in rape and I realized that I knew next nothing on the subject. The trouble with rape in this country is that we're very hush hush about it. People like Akin make it seem like rape is simply a way for women to get back at men or a way to get pity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:


The trouble with rape in this country is that we're very hush hush about it.

This is an amazingly complex topic. It's one that there was serious discussion on while I was in the reporting game. 

News has, for a long time now, had an unwritten rule that you don't publish the names of rape victims. The idea was that because of the humiliation that rape brings, to print the person's name would be to publicly display that humiliation. Around when I was starting, some people had decided that was actually having a negative impact, that it was treating rape victims not as human beings, but as nothing more than a victim of rape forever. It was a linguistic dehumanization. Some agencies have actually shifted to reporting the victim's name if the victim agrees because of it. 

Another area of debate was the media's portrayal of the Penn State situation as a "sex scandal," of a former defensive coordinator "sexually assaulting" children when in reality it was truly a rape scandal, as the main allegation was that Sandusky raped, anally and orally, a number of children. 

The choice of language is largely set by the AP Stylebook, and it's done so to hedge off the severity of certain words as not to upset readers. However, I'm of the opinion that it does a disservice to the actual severity of the situation. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 3:08pm
By PA law, yes, that is rape.  However, the confusion could come from differing state and local definitions of rape.  Some statutes require that the 2 people be of differing gender, some define it as only vaginal intercourse, etc.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 5:45pm
Now lets look at another aspect of the 'rape' charge. Our Criminal Justice System allows the 'perp' to defend his position in the crime by attacking the 'victim' and the usual defense stylings of the defense attorney. The 'victim' is torn apart, all the while the 'rights' of the accused are 'protected'.

Rape is no joking matter, and it happens across the spectrum, but only when a 'idiotic' statement and the need for a political advantage does the issue arise to 'in depth' coverage in our info-tainment media.

Here is a classic example of 'dual standards'

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/senator-famous-joking-about-rape-campaigns-obama-

And not one 'in depth' look or calls for resignation....strange.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/senator-famous-joking-about-rape-campaigns-obama-


Originally posted by weeklystandard.com weeklystandard.com wrote:

The requested page could not be found.
<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 7:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 8:24pm
So now were tryIng to discredit Obama by using jokes a comedian ,who probably shouldn't have been elected in the first place, said as a comedian?

That's like trying to discredit Obama if he ever stood on a stage with Arnold Schwarzenegger for all the people that he "killed"

Edited by jmac3 - 23 August 2012 at 8:24pm
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 8:56pm
It's sad how easy it is to side track republicans during election year. We get it, you don't like abortions, contraceptives, etc etc. But why do you people go out of your way to alienate yourself from the female vote, every election. It's like clock work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

It's sad how easy it is to side track republicans during election year. We get it, you don't like abortions, contraceptives, etc etc. But why do you people go out of your way to alienate yourself from the female vote, every election. It's like clock work.



It's because fringe dwellers always get the media coverage. It's like that in every party.

This is an especially awkward position because while his reasoning is different he shares a platform with other Republicans. So they can't just be like "screw that guy he's a loon." Its the reason I've been pissing and moaning about the tea party all along-eventually they're going to be the face of the Republicans. It's just how public perception works.

It's the same reason thoughts of Obama bring to mind Muslims, Africa, and dirty Chicago politics. Cognitive recognition is a funny thing, we remember and associate people by their most extreme characteristics, even if those attributes are based on unfounded accusations.

Remember how Mama Cass totally choked to death on a ham sandwich?

Edited by stratoaxe - 23 August 2012 at 10:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


Rape is no joking matter,

This is the truth. We've been far too OK with rape being the punch-line to jokes, or rape jokes themselves being tossed around, and rape being used in common nomenclature in general. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 11:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 11:36pm
Hello Mike, welcome to our rape thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 12:16am
To be fair, he wasn't THAT far off base, medically speaking, but he definitely worded it wrong. The vagina is a hostile space for sperm and already makes it pretty damn hard for conception. On top of that, if a female is under a lot of stress (such as marital issues, job issues, and yes, rape among other things) it manifests itself physiologically and can in turn make the body less receptive to conception, let alone carrying to term. Of course not impossible.






And to comment on whales post about news refusing to release supposed victims names... the news is also quick to jump on releasing the accused name and address, quickly making it a "She said it happened, so he HAD to have done it" situation, despite the decent percentage of accusations that turn out to be false. It's not an equal playing ground and makes it that much harder for the falsely accused. Just like the general idea that people don't view acquaintance rape as 'real rape', they also view "Well no one would lie about that" and label the accused as guilty.

Edited by Linus - 24 August 2012 at 12:23am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 12:39am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

 the news is also quick to jump on releasing the accused name and address,
 

While reporting on an arrest, the story does almost always include the name of the person charged - because that's the actual fact of what happened. It's not a judgement as to the person actually committing the crime, but simply a statement of fact that Mr. Person was arrested and charged with [SOMETHING] on [DATE]. 

The address is included to avoid mistaken identity, which can lead to libel lawsuits. 

Quote It's not an equal playing ground and makes it that much harder for the falsely accused.

Yes, that can suck for those falsely accused, but it would most likely be a very bad idea to put more stigmatism in the way of victims of rape. The number of rapes that are never reported because of threat of violence, or because the victim doesn't know what rape is defined as, or for myriad other reasons, is astonishingly high. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 12:53am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

While reporting on an arrest, the story does almost always include the name of the person charged - because that's the actual fact of what happened. It's not a judgement as to the person actually committing the crime, but simply a statement of fact
When people see "The rape victim, who we will not name, stated Mr Peterson raped her"... the average person will view the anonymous accuser as the victim and the named person as the one who did it, without any further proof. You may write the name due to the arrest, but the average person views the arrest as "Well, they must have done it or they wouldn't have been arrested"



Quote The number of rapes that are never reported because of threat of violence, or because the victim doesn't know what rape is defined as, or for myriad other reasons, is astonishingly high. [/URL]
I'd say the rate of false allegations and convictions based off those is horrendous. Depending on the study, it usually averages in the teens, with the FBIs official number at 8%. That's 4 times the national average of unfounded accusations in all other crimes (at 2%). That's just the number that is found out, some experts believe a much higher number.

Edited by Linus - 24 August 2012 at 12:54am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:12am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

When people see "The rape victim, who we will not name, stated Mr Peterson raped her"...
 

That information, in that type of article, is almost always going to be sourced from a police report.

Quote but the average person views the arrest as "Well, they must have done it or they wouldn't have been arrested"
 

I'm sure that can happen, but what exactly is the news media supposed to do? Not state the available facts? Where does that end, exactly?

Quote  Depending on the study,
 

This is a good place to point out that the studies that have attempted to quantify false rape allegations have been scattered because of lack of solid methodology and wonky mechanics. 

Something like the Maclean study, which found false rapes to be in the upper 40s, use "the victim appearing disheveled" as a criteria -- A ton of these studies that find absurdly high false accusation rates, if you look into them, use outdated concepts of defining what rape actually is. 

Quote it usually averages in the teens,
 

Again, because you have studies like Maclean, Kanin, and Stewart who use absurd methodologies and get absurd results because of it. Stewart proposed that something like 90% of all rapes were false. 

Quote  with the FBIs official number at 8%.

And the amount of criticism of that produced number, and it's basis in way outdated definitions of rape, is quite a bit. It's still defining rape based on individual, non-standardized police reports and charging reports, where reported rapes have been dismissed because the accused didn't use a weapon, or because the victim didn't struggle enough, or because the victim didn't report it soon enough. 

Quote That's 4 times the national average of unfounded accusations in all other crimes (at 2%).

Even so, even if the 8 percent are indeed false, despite that number most likely being incorrect, we're talking about studies and polls that consistently show that at least half of all rapes are underreported, with that number growing exponentially on college campuses. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:16am
For sure false accusations happen, and I do believe that penalties should be crazy severe for doing so. I think the lines of rape become especially blurry with statutory rape. But that's a well discussed topic with a fairly common consensus.

But my issue with this guy lies strictly in his delivery. It's like people who quite crime statistics all among minorities in conversations about race relations. Are they there? Yup. But when used the wrong way in a conversation it's like portraying then as lesser forms of humanity instead of examine the socioeconomic factors behind the statistics.

So while you may be 100% correct that a woman has a harder time conceiving under stress, the way this man used that fact was to cast doubt on a majority of cases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:21am
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 

So while you may be 100% correct that a woman has a harder time conceiving under stress, the way this man used that fact was to cast doubt on a majority of cases.

It proposes the idea that if you got pregnant from rape, you were not stressed enough, therefore the rape was not "legitimate." 

Which is a crappy enough thing to say that even Republicans are backing away with their hands in the air. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:23am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

I'm sure that can happen, but what exactly is the news media supposed to do? Not state the available facts? Where does that end, exactly?
If you're going to state the available facts, then state ALL the availble facts instead of cherrypicking. How about releasing both names instead? If you release the accused name and they're later acquitted or it's found out it was falsified, you can't undo the damage that was done by putting that name out in public. If you're acquitted and records are expunged, the court documents will be unavailable, but a prospective employer doing Google search will see you were accused, charged for rape.   You hardly ever see the news articals about acquittals, pretty much only if it's high-profile or special interest.


And yes, you can argue that it's public record which is why you can do the accused name and that the public can look up the accusers name if they want, but you know people won't do that.


I hate when the media uses "We want to respect the privacy of the accuser" but don't give a damn about the accused when they can be just as innocent, if not more so.

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Even so, even if the 8 percent are indeed false, despite that number most likely being incorrect, we're talking about studies and polls that consistently show that at least half of all rapes are underreported, with that number growing exponentially on college campuses.


I really don't want to go back several years of forum posts, but aren't you of the mind that it's better to have 10 criminals go free than 1 innocent go to jail?


Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

So while you may be 100% correct that a woman has a harder time conceiving under stress, the way this man used that fact was to cast doubt on a majority of cases.

Not may be, AM


And that's why I'm not standing up to the national and going "Nuh-uh, he's right!" He worded it wrong, didn't use science, and just relied on paraphrasing what others told him.

Edited by Linus - 24 August 2012 at 1:29am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:29am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

How about releasing both names instead of playing cherrypicker?

It's an interesting debate, for sure. And it's one I'm not sure I honestly have a solid opinion on. I can for sure see the side of releasing the name of the victim, but I can also see the potential harm in it. 

Quote If you release the accused name and they're later acquitted or it's found out it was falsified, you can't undo the damage that was done by putting that name out in public. If you're acquitted and records are expunged, the court documents will be unavailable, but a prospective employer doing Google search will see you were accused, charged for rape. 

You hardly ever see the news articals about acquittals, pretty much only if it's high-profile or special interest.
 

Fair enough assessment. I'm just not sure what the media can do out it -- of course one answer you've gotten at is a good one: Do a better job with follow-up stories. 


Quote I really don't want to go back several years of forum posts, but aren't you of the mind that it's better to have 10 criminals go free than 1 innocent go to jail?

Indeed, why? 

Quote Not may be, AM
 

In context, not really. 

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