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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:35pm
Clearly you didn't read the article I posted twice. 

"Even companies whose news outlets are often perceived as having a conservative bias have given significantly more money to Mr. Obama. Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation, for example, has contributed $58,825 to Mr. Obama’s campaign, compared with $2,750 to Mr. Romney."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:22pm
And clearly every website you read and news you see is right Wong. They don't even come close to hiding it.

The headlines I see on fox news are so heavily tilted to the right I feel like I have the Onion news network on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:16pm
It isn't a conspiracy...

JournOlist, blatant bias that I point out daily, and this..


Clearly the media in our country is liberal. They don't even hide it anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:10pm
Everything is about liberal conspiracy with you, isn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 12:53pm
The way the democrats are pumping up the 'war on women' campaign because of this akin flap is just unbelievable. 

CNN commits a random act of journalism. To which Debbie tells him it doesn't matter what she says, or who she misquotes, her message is more important than the facts she is misrepresenting... Or something. 


How anyone can be a fan of the democrats when SHE is the face, voice and logic of their party is beyond me. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 11:43am
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 Those are the he said / she said cases where the possibility of wrongful accusation becomes much broader than the "woman abducted by homeless person, raped, and nearly beaten to death" story that's going to make the news.

The former, though, are far and above more common than the "stranger jumping from the bushes" type scenario. And also, the former tend to be the most underreported as well, as opposed to the latter. Mostly because a lot of women don't understand the actual meaning of rape. If a woman and her boyfriend get tipsy, he wants to have sex, she says no, he keeps asking and she doesn't say yes, but simply allows it to happen without fighting, that's still a rape. 

But, then again, what you said is the truth. The much, much rarer "stranger in the bushes" story makes for better news, and gets played up much more often. 

Rape is a really, really weird dynamic in a lot of ways. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 11:08am
What I find interesting about the Akin thing is the way the media frames the party they hate with the "extreme" label, when Obama himself voted to keep partial birth abortions every time it faced his vote...

In fact when he described the problem of babies being born alive after a botched partial birth abortion. Obama said this "In fact, they're not just coming out limp and dead,"

Obama then wanted to allow Abortionists to let the baby die by leaving it alone. I guess Tillers method of "snipping" them was too brutal a method of infanticide for even Obama, but letting them starve to death was a suitable "non extreme" outcome for his conscience. 


The way the media plays to one side is so annoying. Especially when it totally goes against the will of the people they report too. 

I guess we Bible thumping red necks are too stupid to understand a baby that is born alive should have the protection of our constitution. 

I can hear the liberal reporter now "silly old federal papers, they just don't understand the complexities of the world today"...




The rape thing is just disturbing, especially when you look at the most popular democrats and their "experience" with rape... Course the media never mentions any of that... But, the public knows the truth. 



Edited by FreeEnterprise - 24 August 2012 at 12:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:57am
I can certainly see both sides of the debate here, but let me throw something out there that I find significant.

To Linus' point, while I agree that showing only the accused could possibly ruin an innocent person, I would argue that the news only shows stories that create a buzz and the simple (pardon my downplaying of severity for the sake of discussion) "girl gets violated by ex-boyfriend / crazy uncle" story that accounts for a large portion of rapes isn't going to be newsworthy. Those are the he said / she said cases where the possibility of wrongful accusation becomes much broader than the "woman abducted by homeless person, raped, and nearly beaten to death" story that's going to make the news.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:44am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

 I see no harm in it unless you argue "Respecting privacy" and "avoiding embarrassment", but why should the accused be any less privy to those themselves than the accuser?

It has to do with the stigma around rape. It's why you don't hear this kind of debate around robbery victims, or assault victims, or anything else victims. Rape, because of the sexual violation that occurs due to the nature of the crime, carries this emotional burden with it -- it's something actually counter to most psychological research on the topic, which highly suggests rape is way more about violence and power than it is sex. 

Rape is a weird crime, and it gets weird contextual situations because of it. Not saying those are completely logical, just that they exist. 

Quote Infact, I'd argue the accused is MORE privy to it due to the idea of due process (innocent until proven guilty) and the stigma attached to such accusations against the accused.
 

It's an interesting proposal. Not one I'm sure I agree with, because the idea of due process isn't really connected to the idea of privacy, and the differences between the societal role of the legal system vs. the media, but it's interesting, nonetheless. 

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:


I don't see that happening, it won't sell ad spots and produce revenue for the news agency.

Pretty much. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:35am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:


It's an interesting debate, for sure. And it's one I'm not sure I honestly have a solid opinion on. I can for sure see the side of releasing the name of the victim, but I can also see the potential harm in it. 
I see no harm in it unless you argue "Respecting privacy" and "avoiding embarrassment", but why should the accused be any less privy to those themselves than the accuser? Infact, I'd argue the accused is MORE deserving to it due to the idea of due process (innocent until proven guilty) that Americans hold dear and the stigma attached to such accusations against the accused.



Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

of course one answer you've gotten at is a good one: Do a better job with follow-up stories. 


I don't see that happening, it won't sell ad spots and produce revenue for the news agency.

Edited by Linus - 24 August 2012 at 1:40am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:29am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

How about releasing both names instead of playing cherrypicker?

It's an interesting debate, for sure. And it's one I'm not sure I honestly have a solid opinion on. I can for sure see the side of releasing the name of the victim, but I can also see the potential harm in it. 

Quote If you release the accused name and they're later acquitted or it's found out it was falsified, you can't undo the damage that was done by putting that name out in public. If you're acquitted and records are expunged, the court documents will be unavailable, but a prospective employer doing Google search will see you were accused, charged for rape. 

You hardly ever see the news articals about acquittals, pretty much only if it's high-profile or special interest.
 

Fair enough assessment. I'm just not sure what the media can do out it -- of course one answer you've gotten at is a good one: Do a better job with follow-up stories. 


Quote I really don't want to go back several years of forum posts, but aren't you of the mind that it's better to have 10 criminals go free than 1 innocent go to jail?

Indeed, why? 

Quote Not may be, AM
 

In context, not really. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:23am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

I'm sure that can happen, but what exactly is the news media supposed to do? Not state the available facts? Where does that end, exactly?
If you're going to state the available facts, then state ALL the availble facts instead of cherrypicking. How about releasing both names instead? If you release the accused name and they're later acquitted or it's found out it was falsified, you can't undo the damage that was done by putting that name out in public. If you're acquitted and records are expunged, the court documents will be unavailable, but a prospective employer doing Google search will see you were accused, charged for rape.   You hardly ever see the news articals about acquittals, pretty much only if it's high-profile or special interest.


And yes, you can argue that it's public record which is why you can do the accused name and that the public can look up the accusers name if they want, but you know people won't do that.


I hate when the media uses "We want to respect the privacy of the accuser" but don't give a damn about the accused when they can be just as innocent, if not more so.

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Even so, even if the 8 percent are indeed false, despite that number most likely being incorrect, we're talking about studies and polls that consistently show that at least half of all rapes are underreported, with that number growing exponentially on college campuses.


I really don't want to go back several years of forum posts, but aren't you of the mind that it's better to have 10 criminals go free than 1 innocent go to jail?


Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

So while you may be 100% correct that a woman has a harder time conceiving under stress, the way this man used that fact was to cast doubt on a majority of cases.

Not may be, AM


And that's why I'm not standing up to the national and going "Nuh-uh, he's right!" He worded it wrong, didn't use science, and just relied on paraphrasing what others told him.

Edited by Linus - 24 August 2012 at 1:29am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:21am
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 

So while you may be 100% correct that a woman has a harder time conceiving under stress, the way this man used that fact was to cast doubt on a majority of cases.

It proposes the idea that if you got pregnant from rape, you were not stressed enough, therefore the rape was not "legitimate." 

Which is a crappy enough thing to say that even Republicans are backing away with their hands in the air. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:16am
For sure false accusations happen, and I do believe that penalties should be crazy severe for doing so. I think the lines of rape become especially blurry with statutory rape. But that's a well discussed topic with a fairly common consensus.

But my issue with this guy lies strictly in his delivery. It's like people who quite crime statistics all among minorities in conversations about race relations. Are they there? Yup. But when used the wrong way in a conversation it's like portraying then as lesser forms of humanity instead of examine the socioeconomic factors behind the statistics.

So while you may be 100% correct that a woman has a harder time conceiving under stress, the way this man used that fact was to cast doubt on a majority of cases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:12am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

When people see "The rape victim, who we will not name, stated Mr Peterson raped her"...
 

That information, in that type of article, is almost always going to be sourced from a police report.

Quote but the average person views the arrest as "Well, they must have done it or they wouldn't have been arrested"
 

I'm sure that can happen, but what exactly is the news media supposed to do? Not state the available facts? Where does that end, exactly?

Quote  Depending on the study,
 

This is a good place to point out that the studies that have attempted to quantify false rape allegations have been scattered because of lack of solid methodology and wonky mechanics. 

Something like the Maclean study, which found false rapes to be in the upper 40s, use "the victim appearing disheveled" as a criteria -- A ton of these studies that find absurdly high false accusation rates, if you look into them, use outdated concepts of defining what rape actually is. 

Quote it usually averages in the teens,
 

Again, because you have studies like Maclean, Kanin, and Stewart who use absurd methodologies and get absurd results because of it. Stewart proposed that something like 90% of all rapes were false. 

Quote  with the FBIs official number at 8%.

And the amount of criticism of that produced number, and it's basis in way outdated definitions of rape, is quite a bit. It's still defining rape based on individual, non-standardized police reports and charging reports, where reported rapes have been dismissed because the accused didn't use a weapon, or because the victim didn't struggle enough, or because the victim didn't report it soon enough. 

Quote That's 4 times the national average of unfounded accusations in all other crimes (at 2%).

Even so, even if the 8 percent are indeed false, despite that number most likely being incorrect, we're talking about studies and polls that consistently show that at least half of all rapes are underreported, with that number growing exponentially on college campuses. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 12:53am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

While reporting on an arrest, the story does almost always include the name of the person charged - because that's the actual fact of what happened. It's not a judgement as to the person actually committing the crime, but simply a statement of fact
When people see "The rape victim, who we will not name, stated Mr Peterson raped her"... the average person will view the anonymous accuser as the victim and the named person as the one who did it, without any further proof. You may write the name due to the arrest, but the average person views the arrest as "Well, they must have done it or they wouldn't have been arrested"



Quote The number of rapes that are never reported because of threat of violence, or because the victim doesn't know what rape is defined as, or for myriad other reasons, is astonishingly high. [/URL]
I'd say the rate of false allegations and convictions based off those is horrendous. Depending on the study, it usually averages in the teens, with the FBIs official number at 8%. That's 4 times the national average of unfounded accusations in all other crimes (at 2%). That's just the number that is found out, some experts believe a much higher number.

Edited by Linus - 24 August 2012 at 12:54am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 12:39am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

 the news is also quick to jump on releasing the accused name and address,
 

While reporting on an arrest, the story does almost always include the name of the person charged - because that's the actual fact of what happened. It's not a judgement as to the person actually committing the crime, but simply a statement of fact that Mr. Person was arrested and charged with [SOMETHING] on [DATE]. 

The address is included to avoid mistaken identity, which can lead to libel lawsuits. 

Quote It's not an equal playing ground and makes it that much harder for the falsely accused.

Yes, that can suck for those falsely accused, but it would most likely be a very bad idea to put more stigmatism in the way of victims of rape. The number of rapes that are never reported because of threat of violence, or because the victim doesn't know what rape is defined as, or for myriad other reasons, is astonishingly high. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2012 at 12:16am
To be fair, he wasn't THAT far off base, medically speaking, but he definitely worded it wrong. The vagina is a hostile space for sperm and already makes it pretty damn hard for conception. On top of that, if a female is under a lot of stress (such as marital issues, job issues, and yes, rape among other things) it manifests itself physiologically and can in turn make the body less receptive to conception, let alone carrying to term. Of course not impossible.






And to comment on whales post about news refusing to release supposed victims names... the news is also quick to jump on releasing the accused name and address, quickly making it a "She said it happened, so he HAD to have done it" situation, despite the decent percentage of accusations that turn out to be false. It's not an equal playing ground and makes it that much harder for the falsely accused. Just like the general idea that people don't view acquaintance rape as 'real rape', they also view "Well no one would lie about that" and label the accused as guilty.

Edited by Linus - 24 August 2012 at 12:23am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2012 at 11:36pm
Hello Mike, welcome to our rape thread.
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