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Fat Kids = Neglect?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 10:55am
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Unfortunately, many parents don't have the ability to make good decisions for themselves, let alone others.
 
Oh, hello root of the problem. LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Unfortunately, many parents don't have the ability to make good decisions for themselves, let alone others.
 
Oh, hello root of the problem. LOL
Perhaps we need to go deeper and say the real root of the problem is that gluttony, promiscuity, and sloth are all socially condoned now, and in some cases celebrated. While I do not advocate bullying, I remember a time when obese people were looked upon as stupid and lazy, not victims. Women who had multiple kids out of wedlock were deemed whores and shunned, not given their own tv shows.  People who sat on the couch all day eating dingdongs and watching tv or playing video games were considered shiftless or lazy, not celebrated as awesome gamers.

Edited by oldpbnoob - 29 November 2011 at 11:10am
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 11:06am
You're opening an all new can of worms now. While I agree completely, that's an agrument in and of itself which could take days to hammer out. Shifting cultural norms are absolutely at the heart of many of the major issues we're seeing today, but I don't see a way to reverse the trend.


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/bracing for whale's response
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

/bracing for whale's response
 
I generally don't read Whale's responses in threads like these. He has a tendency to make me look silly by using big words and actual honest-to-goodness logic that exploits the numerous holes in my thought process that is the cause for barely intelligible postings on controvercial matters.
 
No, I'm quite happy with my illusions that my opinions are gospel.


Edited by Reb Cpl - 29 November 2011 at 12:32pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

/bracing for whale's response
Bring it.
 
I don't forsee much that can be disputed. IMO, social stigma is an excellent enforcer of socially acceptable behavior. Much like parents who lack basic parenting skills fail their children, society fails its members by improperly defining what is correct and incorrect behavior. When a child throws a tantrum, he gets a time out. When a member of society behaves poorly, they get shunned. When either behaves correctly, they are allowed back into society. When no boundaries are set for a child, they do not know right from wrong. When society fails to impose boundaries, we get fat lazy kids and Jersey Shore.


Edited by oldpbnoob - 29 November 2011 at 1:16pm
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 1:21pm
What's sad is that the schools that do poorly on the standardized tests. Get rid of recess so they can focus more on class time.

Thanks a lot No Child Left Behind.

It's also sad that we have commercials telling kids to go out and play 60 minutes a day.

I'm buying stock in insulin companies. 1/3 kids will develop diabetes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 1:34pm
What's wrong with promiscuity? 
Originally posted by wrote:

According to a 2001 UNICEF survey, in 10 out of 12 developed nations with available data, more than two thirds of young people have had sexual intercourse while still in their teens. In Denmark, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Norway, the United Kingdom and the United States, the proportion is over 80%.

In these 7 countries, the combined teenager aborted/birth rate is as follows (birth, aborted, combined):
Denmark8.215.423.6
Finland9.89.619.4
Germany13.05.318.3
Norway13.618.331.9
Iceland21.520.642.1
United Kingdom29.621.350.9
United States55.630.285.8


It seems to me that promiscuity is not the problem, but rather the way in which we handle it (don't worry about condoms or birth control, just don't have sex and you won't need them LOL)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 1:41pm

Exactly what is the info you posted supposed to be supporting? You're gonna have to splain it better.

I guess I do not define promiscuity as simply having sex. Unsafe sex, unprotected sex with mulitple partners with no concern of the outcome is what I am talking about. I think the example of the unwed mother of three kids from three different dads was the exact example I gave. Considering one of the definitions of promiscuous is "careless", IMO this is an accurate usage of the term.


Edited by oldpbnoob - 29 November 2011 at 1:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 2:00pm
 
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

/bracing for whale's response

Much to do today. I'll take some time late this afternoon for posting some responses. 


Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Bring it.

Confused I didn't mean to convey that we were arguing, or even really debating. I just thought we were having a cool discussion. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

 
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

/bracing for whale's response

Much to do today. I'll take some time late this afternoon for posting some responses. 


Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Bring it.

Confused I didn't mean to convey that we were arguing, or even really debating. I just thought we were having a cool discussion. 
I was kidding. I read ROFLs post as him thinking you would come on and totally tear apart what I posted. I think my argument is fairly sound. I can't see much to brace for.
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 2:10pm
Not a problem.

That info supports the notion that there are other countries who have young people who are just as or more promiscuous than ours, yet have teen pregnancy rates far below ours.  This must mean that it is not just the fact that young people are having a lot of sex, but the way different societies approach the issue that is the cause of teenage pregnancies.  I believe, from what I have seen , that the cause for this is that other countries do not place as much social stigma on sex as we do.  There it is normal for teens to engage in sexual activity, and with that, their teenagers are not as reluctant to seek help with birth control.  Sex isn't something that they feel the need to hide from their parents, and their parents don't feel the need to shelter their children from it.  

In the U.S., the teens that are getting pregnant and having children with multiple fathers received sex education that consisted of false information to scare children away from sex (the old BB's representing HIV and a tennis racket representing a condom demonstration) and "Don't have sex until you are married."  This is what I believe leads our kids to participate in your definition of promiscuity. 

As far as promiscuous meaning "careless", this is a definition I have never seen and I feel like most people would define it the same way I do, as having sex with multiple people.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Not a problem.

That info supports the notion that there are other countries who have young people who are just as or more promiscuous than ours, yet have teen pregnancy rates far below ours.  This must mean that it is not just the fact that young people are having a lot of sex, but the way different societies approach the issue that is the cause of teenage pregnancies.  I believe, from what I have seen , that the cause for this is that other countries do not place as much social stigma on sex as we do.  There it is normal for teens to engage in sexual activity, and with that, their teenagers are not as reluctant to seek help with birth control.  Sex isn't something that they feel the need to hide from their parents, and their parents don't feel the need to shelter their children from it.  

In the U.S., the teens that are getting pregnant and having children with multiple fathers received sex education that consisted of false information to scare children away from sex (the old BB's representing HIV and a tennis racket representing a condom demonstration) and "Don't have sex until you are married."  This is what I believe leads our kids to participate in your definition of promiscuity. 

As far as promiscuous meaning "careless", this is a definition I have never seen and I feel like most people would define it the same way I do, as having sex with multiple people.  
Careless sex with multiple people is a better definition IMO. I have always felt the connotation of promiscuous to be a negative one, so the negative definition is more accurate. Perhaps it's a generational thing. I don't beleive in the "waiting until marriage" philosophy, but we do beleive in waiting until you are physcially and mentally prepared for such activity. We also beleivie in instilling our kids with the knowledge that birth control is not foolproof as our oldest is a perfect example of this (she was an oops pregnancy), so understanding the consequences of your actions is extremely important. "Make good decisions" is the standard mantra in our house.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 2:28pm
Yes, there are houses like yours, who take the common sense approach, and it shows in that your children made good decisions.  I would bet that the number of "oops" pregnancies where the birth control failed is far lower here than the number of "oops" pregnancies where there was no birth control to fail.  Obviously it will fail from time to time, but not using birth control does not keep kids from having sex.  It is better to have one or 2 lines of defense aside from pulling out, than having no lines of defense when the activity is still going to take place.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 2:47pm
I probably need to be more clear, my oldest child was an "oops" baby. We've told her the story a few times of how here mother was on birth control and still got preggers. My point was teaching that birth control is not foolproof and if a mistake happens it can ruin your life. Understanding the consequences of being sexually active is important. And she is only 13,  she better not even be in situations where she has to make such decisions yet. Hopefully, when she does, she will be decently informed.
 
I also feel that the statistics that you have thrown out have some basic issues. For one, it does not provide information regarding actual ages/percentages etc. Considering 18 and 19 year olds are still "teens", it causes an issue. I think there is definitely less stigma on kids having sex once they leave home. I wonder what percentages of the teens surveyed were early vs late teens? Does Germany have as many 14 year olds having sex as we do? More info is needed. Second issue I see and think I have mentioned before is that I feel it is a somewhat unfair comparison between the U.S. and these other countries. Aside from the UK, I would venture most of those countries mentioned are consdierably more homogenous.  It would be like comparing the pregnancy rate of a rural school in the bible belt to an inner city school in a major city.  Trying to compare a country where 90-95% of the people share the same culture and ethnicity to one as multi-ethnic and cultural as the U.S. is questionable.


Edited by oldpbnoob - 29 November 2011 at 2:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Yes, there are houses like yours, who take the common sense approach, and it shows in that your children made good decisions.  
The problem with that particular statement is that this is a discussion of morality, and there really is no common sense approach here
 
I wholeheartedly agree with oldpb's methods myself, if I ever have children that's likely the approach I'd take. I personally feel that sex is a part of human development, and if the methods exist to control STD / pregnancy risk, than it's kind of *shrug* situation for me. We all did it. But that leads me to the next point, which will soundly contradict the point I just made....
 
There are many families in America that believe sex out of wedlock is as wrong as stealing, and for those families the idea of giving your children access to birth control is like saying "Don't drive daddy's porsche but here's a helmet if you decide to". You have to be very careful here, because this isn't a black and white discussion of concrete fact, this is a discussion of family morality. I don't believe you can equate abstinence philosophy to poor parenting or lack of common sense.
 
This is where I believe the educational system is responsible for being the great equalizer in sex education. At an appropriate age (like not kindergarten) children should be taught by the school about contraception, STD's, risk factors, so on and so forth. Just like my previous rant on teaching kids how to eat healthy and cook, I think school should prepare them for this part of life as well.
 
I was never taught any form of sex education by my parents. Literally, every time I asked as a kid I was given the "you'll learn when you're ready". See, my parents came from the line of thought that you sat a kid down on his / her first date and gave them the steady stream of horror stories that would override their hormonal instincts, and this failed miserably, because they never ever met my first date.
 
So there's certainly a wrong way to anything, and I think that pregnancy among conservative / abstinence teaching households comes less from the teaching itself being insufficient and more from parents that are, for whatever reason, too timid to approach the subject to their kids.
 
In fact, just as pure speculation, I wonder how many kids actually got a real sex talk from their parents. My sister is incredibly liberal with her kids, she's a nurse and her philosophy has always been that kids will do waht kids will do. Yet, being a single mom, she felt awkward having the "talk" with my nephew, and tasked me with doing it. Fortunately, by the time he came to me with questions the school had already done its part and I didn't have to give any gory, awkward details, but I'd love to see a study on how many parents even approach their kids with the topic of sex.
 
OF course, a study like this would be completely impractical, as I'd imagine most people aren't going to admit they didn't have a big enough pair to talk to their kids about sex, but still, I'll bet it would be a frightening statistic.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 3:16pm
I never got the talk from my parents.  I got the "your body is changing.  No, that wasn't pee in your pants when you woke up" class in 5th grade and the scared straight class in 8th.  Other than that, I learned most of it from scrambled HBO.  I did mention the differing societal views in my discussions as well as timid parents, which I think we are on the same page with.  

There are probably some discrepancies in my statistics, but I don't see how have multiple races as opposed to a single race would cause that large of a gap.  Unless you are insinuating that non-whites are more promiscuous than whites or that minorities are responsible for getting the majority races pregnant at a young age, which I doubt that you are.  I just don't see the relevance.

Fun fact:  The age of consent in Germany is 14 and there are no statutory laws.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 3:18pm

I do feel that morality should be taught Strato. I think there is a lot of open space between "no sex until marriage" and letting your 13 year old host an orgy at your house. While a lot of people want to try and say that there is nothing wrong with teenagers having casual sex, they are also prone to considering a girl who sleeps with a different dude a couple of times a week a whore.

BTW, I was the one to have the initial big sex talk with my daughter a few years ago. She asked about it because some kids at school had said some things and I gave her a very clinical explanation of how things worked. I let her ask questions and answered them. It was probably easier to do then, than it would be to do now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I do feel that morality should be taught Strato. I think there is a lot of open space between "no sex until marriage" and letting your 13 year old host an orgy at your house. .

 
For sure, part of why I feel that there's no common sense approach to this subject is because there are so many different ideas regarding sexual morality.
 
I don't consider one superior to the other for the sake of discussion, unless kids are being taught that it's okay to diddle like rabbits and let the state take care of their babies (you'd be surprised),  in which case those parents are doing more damage to the US than any terrorist or hippy.
 
This may be a little off subject, but continuing the idea of poor parenting, I wonder how you guys feel on having children being a right. I heard that alot in the hospital waiting room, people would complain to me that Medicaid was taking too long, and that it was the government interfering with their ability to raise their kids. It's like people feel it's a constitutional right to reproduce regardless of financial status, and then it's the government's responsibility to compensate for said status. It's shockingt to me how many girls feel that they're perfectly ready to raise children when they haven't even graduated high school yet.
 
One of my favorite conversations involved being cursed out by a new teen mother because I asked for her Medicaid card, and, not knowing what Medicaid was, ranted at me for several minutes on how she wasn't rich enough for insurance and to F'ing get her baby back to the doctor before she F'ing sued me. I kid you not.
 
So obviously a moron like that is probably not going to be educating their child on eating habits, sexual responsibility, etc etc. I'm not going to pretend that people like her make up any statistical percentage of teen moms because I have no basis for such a statement, but it's always made me wonder about America's value system, and where we, as a society, developed such a sense of entitlement and how much that sense of entitelement was going to affect us as a society.
 
I think that this plays at least a part in the discussion of child welfare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2011 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:


There are probably some discrepancies in my statistics, but I don't see how have multiple races as opposed to a single race would cause that large of a gap.  Unless you are insinuating that non-whites are more promiscuous than whites or that minorities are responsible for getting the majority races pregnant at a young age, which I doubt that you are.  I just don't see the relevance.
  Different cultures treat sex and birth control differently. Whites, Latinos, African Americans, Asians, Persian, Indian etc all have different cultures and all are present in the U.S in fairly large quantities. This would absolutely affect the statistics when you are comparing them to a country that has maybe a 10% ethnic/cultural minority population that is primarily of Islamic faith. And again, it would be like comparing the pregnancy rates of a rural conservative community with those of an inner city school.
 
Edited, for link to stats: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/USTPtrends.pdf. Pregnancy rates for Hispanics and Blacks was double that of Whites and triple that of non-white/non-hispanic minorities.


Edited by oldpbnoob - 29 November 2011 at 3:49pm
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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