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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 November 2011 at 5:28pm
...I have a serious question.
 
 
My question is this-how has this administration impacted the economy in such a way that businesses feel prohibited from hiring new employees, and as a result, how will those elements change if a new president is elected?
 
A few things here-
 
-This is a serious question. I'm not troll baiting here, and actually I definitely want to hear FE's perspective as a business owner / manager.
 
-I'm looking for specific facts backed by statistical data. Not a vague "because of Obamacare" type thing, but a real number. For instance, "before Obamacare, I was contributing X amount of dollars to employee healthcare, now I would be forced to contribute X amount", or "because of X economic regulation that Obama has passed, small businesses are suffering".
 
-I have no opinion and nothing to contribute, but I'm incrediby curious and sick of reading one "Obama's economy" or "Obamacare" post after another on forums without any explanation as to what they mean. The reason I'm asking here instead of Google is because I want real world experience not political rhetoric. I know there are a few here that are involved in managing companies or owning them, and I'd love to hear if there's any valid logic to be applied here or if this is just groundless political tongue wagging.
 
-If it is groundless political tongue wagging, shame on any business pulling these kinds of stunts in an economy like this (read the comments section, apparently this type of thing is quite common).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yomillio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2011 at 7:34pm
My uncle owns a small business (~20 full time employees), and has seen no visible impact the hiring of employees due to the economy.  He has taken on as many employees as he has let go over the past 5 years, for whatever it is worth.  I think he actually may have even opened up a position or two over that time.

Edited by Yomillio - 23 November 2011 at 7:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2011 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 how has this administration impacted the economy in such a way that businesses feel prohibited from hiring new employees, and as a result, how will those elements change if a new president is elected?

That's an extremely complex question with probably an equally complex answer. 

Allow me to preface this answer with a rebuttal of your original question: Economically speaking, you're not going to find your answer of employer relations and job-creation stagnation within only the Obama administration. The Bush presidency saw net job losses, I do believe. That trend has somewhat continued into Obama's administration, although the losses did decrease, the actual unemployment didn't.

The unemployment situation has been crappy for nearly a decade, and I think we'll short-sight our discussion if we try to ask what Obama's administration is doing. It'd be a geographical fallacy with the data we are dealing with -- that the trend was continuing well before his presidency. 

Now, onto answering the partially reformed question at hand: 

I'll say quite a bit of it has to do with instability. 

I think, if you examine times of excess vs. times of recession, stability of the world around us plays quite a bit into it. 

I hate to use "globalization" as a proposed answer to yet another question on the forum, but I believe that globalization is the key player in the causing of the instability. There is unknown where the labor force will come from next (As China develops into a first-world citizenry, you'll see less of a willingness to work like people in Bangladesh will currently). There is unknown where resources will come from. There is unknown when it comes to purchasing power of given consumer markets. 

Instability means businesses do two things: Consolidate the work force, and limit expenditures. 

The first thing means laying off quite a portion of the workforce, moving labor overseas, relying on automation, etc. The second thing means not hiring replacement labor, not investing into R&D, and not expanding. 

And this dominos. Remember we're discussing multi-country corporations up in the first bit. Huge conglomerates with a lot of vertical and horizontal reach. But, what do the laid-off workers from this conglomerate do? Well, they don't spend money with smaller domestic companies. 

Nobody spending, nobody buying, means nobody is collecting, nobody is earning. The gears of capitalism tend to sieze up. 

So, the question becomes what do we do? 

Well, work on stability, for one. This could include promoting a particular domestic industry, it could mean tax incentives and subsidies, it could mean a lot of things. And I think we're seeing some of these things discussed now. 

But also, if I may add, we do a woeful job of unemployment in this country, at least compared to other countries.

If you examine the areas of mass-layoff, you'll see quite a bit of it is unskilled labor. While you're seeing layoffs across the board, where you are seeing mass-layoff, as in the entire assembly plant is shut down, it's wrench turners. Then the problem becomes that those wrench-turning jobs are not coming back, not when we have to compete with Bangladesh. Yet we woefully underfund job training and vocational skill programs in the country. Many European countries have completely tax subsidized programs, whereas we often expect people who have been laid off to pay for their own reeducation. If you pay a little more upfront for reeducation, as places like Germany are learning, you get more out of it when your economy turns around faster in a recession. 

Instead of unemployed car assembly workers sitting around doing nothing because they are broke, they are taking jobs as plumbers, doing wiring, etc. 

So, long post summed up: 

1) We're still in the middle of a globalized shake-up. Business hates instability. Both the Bush and Obama presidencies have not really done a lot to combat this shake-up, and in turn, companies are sitting on piles of cash, not hiring anyone. This has transferred into a lack of expendable income, hurting everyone. 

2) We've got a growing unskilled labor workforce and a shoddy, half-assed unemployment system. Meaning, we've got an army of people that are hardly employable in today's market. 

I could, and will, expand upon this as our discussion grows, Strato. It's a neat conversation. 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 23 November 2011 at 9:39pm
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2011 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by Yomillio Yomillio wrote:

My uncle owns a small business (~20 full time employees), and has seen no visible impact the hiring of employees due to the economy.  He has taken on as many employees as he has let go over the past 5 years, for whatever it is worth.  I think he actually may have even opened up a position or two over that time.

While just anecdote, I do think this presents the idea that not all business is impacted by what I talked about in my post. There are some businesses doing rather well. 

Economics is a fickle business. Which is why simplistic answers (Often coming from simple minds) like "taxes are too high" and "Too much regulation," are not only factually inaccurate, but also generally micro-analyzed. 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 23 November 2011 at 8:32pm
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2011 at 9:15pm
Great reply Whale. I've been debating the impact of market regulation with a very conservative friend of mine who feels that any and all regulation is detrimental to capitalism, and that this is the reason why employers have had trouble under the Obama administration.

My issue with conservatives (or should I say right wingers) and statements like this is that they A:) apply regulation as a blanket term and B:) fail to answer the age old debate of causation vs correlation. Being economically conservative myself, I find these conversations frustrating because it seems awfully oversimplified to say that President X is in office and the economy tanks, therefore it is entirely X's fault.

But I don't like to be close minded, and my education level is still in its infancy, so I'm completely open to arguments here. But to sufficiently prove the point that an awful lot of folks on the right are making, it's going to require several statistics that are very specific in nature.

My conservative friend is very intelligent, much more so than myself, but the deeper I grilled him on how this administration has directly affected the ability to hire new employees, the more generalized and vague the examples he gave became. Essentially he quotes stories about milk being classified as a dangerous chemical and pipelines being delayed.

All good or bad, but they still don't provide me the direct correlation that needs to be made in order to declare Obama the single largest factor in a declinining economy.

This discussion is fascinating to me because such a simple statement can branch out into endless discussions on market regulation, globalization, corruption, so on and so forth. It really digs into the raw core of the left vs right debate, and I find the sheer number of variables that go into forming such ideologies to be mind blowing. It really separates the thinkers from the rhetoric spewers, I'll just be glad when I can finally jump in with a definitive opinion rather than playing spectator :P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2011 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Essentially he quotes stories about milk being classified as a dangerous chemical and pipelines being delayed.
 

Both of these, for example, come with their own interesting conversations and caveats. 

In the case of milk, (I believe your friend is referencing the Amish situation) it's not just milk, but raw, unprocessed and unpasteurized milk. The concern, then, is that the selling of unpasteurized milk to unknowing customers means the potential for disease. And in infants and small children, those digestive diseases can be fatal. 

With the pipeline, well, there is a whole casserole of environmental issues to consider. Oil sand is dirty. It's a dirty process to extract, process and refine. We could have an entire thread talking about the potential pipeline and the environmental ramifications involved with it. 

I'm not against the selling of raw milk or building oil pipelines. But it's worth having an honest discussion about the situations and regulations and not the assumption that all regulation is evil, or that all regulation is inherently good. 


Quote All good or bad, but they still don't provide me the direct correlation that needs to be made in order to declare Obama the single largest factor in a declinining economy.
 

The same can be seen with the economic surplus of the 1990s. It wasn't only Clinton's surplus (As I've been guilty of calling it in the past, before I understood the complexity of these things) and it wasn't only H.W. Bush's surplus. It was a combination of a ton of political, global and economic factors that mixed together to make a smoothie of an outcome. 

It's hard for people to consider complexity. 

Quote It really digs into the raw core of the left vs right debate,
 

Which, when dealing with economics, is generally worthless. 

Quote I'll just be glad when I can finally jump in with a definitive opinion rather than playing spectator :P

You're at that level as much as I am. You can discuss rationally and understand when you don't have an answer. I have no idea -how- to increase stability. I have some ideas, but nothing at all that means anything more than your opinions. 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 23 November 2011 at 9:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2011 at 11:56pm
2007 my health insurance rates went up 20%, 2008 they went up 25%, 2009, they went up 30%, 2010, (after obamacare) they went up 55%.
 
This year, they went up 100%. So I changed plans and they only went up 40% but it is a much worse plan (and we had to change doctors... weird I thought we could keep our doctors)
 
That is a huge increase in my employee costs, so much so that this year when we needed more employees, instead of hiring them, we hired temps as we don't have to pay their health insurance... And they don't go on my "employee" list, meaning I am still under 20 employees according to Obamacare.
 
It is hard but you have to make decisions just to stay in business right now. I needed low cost labor, jobs that I used to hire people right out of school to do, but with the new regulations, and the minimum wage price it just makes sense for me to use temps that are a flat $15 an hour. I don't have to fill out all the paperwork, put them on my payroll, or mess with their healthcare. It also keeps my company "employee" role to under 20... A critical number now for business. (we used to have 32 employees in 2009)
 
Go over 20, and you have a bunch of costs that kick in with federal and state regulations and Obamacare.
 
In my business it is extremely hard to break even right now (notice I didn't say make a profit, because most small businesses are NOT making profit right now, but just trying to stay alive). Businesses are failing daily and many of our customers have gone out of business during this time. While the remaining customers are looking for the lowest price they can find... it isn't uncommon for a customer to get bids from 5-10 different companies just to get the lowest possible price.
 
I was looking at a job this week that I lost by $263 dollars.
 
In 2008 I sold that job for $8,250. In 2009, that job would have sold for $7,800. Now in 2011, I quoted it for $6,120 and lost it by $263... And ALL of my costs have gone up, my energy costs are higher, my paper prices are higher, my property taxes are higher (went up 20%), my taxes are higher, my healthcare costs have doubled...
 
Each time a company fails, companies like mine that those companies owed money to, DON'T get paid... So businesses are very cautious about credit lines right now, as everyone has been shafted with no pay clients... People can't get loans from banks, so if you don't have a bunch of money in the bank... you won't survive.
 
We have been VERY lucky as we have only had a few customers go out of business over the past two years, but it still accounts for tens of thousands of dollars lost. Because there are no "bail outs" for small business, no one cares if our costs go up or down, or if we get crunched by the government, we don't have people lobbying for us, or getting us "bailouts"...
 
Our energy prices have gone through the roof with the drilling ban a few years ago, and we all see the prices at the pumps and that affects our bottom line as we deliver every project we produce... And all of our materials are delivered to us, so that high diesel price really affects our bottom line... 3.50 a gallon is a massive cost on businesses. One that could be easily fixed if we had a President who understood how important the cost of oil is on business. Obama HATES oil, and wants green energy, (clearly if you look at his policies) except green energy doesn't work NOW... It may work in the future, but it is NO WHERE NEAR ready for prime time. And yet, we are spending BILLIONS of tax dollars on that. And every single tax dollar spent has to be TAKEN from someone like me first, meaning I have less to save for rough times, or invest in my company or to hire an employee.
 
Stopping the pipeline last week was just about the dumbest thing Obama has done so far, but good for him, the media ignored it. While business owners groaned as they knew that pipeline would have increased supply and would lower energy prices. Here in Ohio we could have started getting oil from our huge supply in our state, (same process being used in Canada who is making BILLIONS off of their oil and it has saved their economy) but, again, Obama stopped it with "more regulations and epa studies needing to be done". At a cost of 400,000 jobs here in Ohio.
 
We need to stop being dependent on foreign oil. We lost hundreds of thousands of oil jobs when Obama stopped the drilling in Alaska, and the gulf, jobs that are high paying, and instead they went overseas. That is completely because of this administration.
 
Not to mention the congress has been run by the liberals since 2007, sure Bush was President, but the house AND senate were run by democrats, and the media is clearly liberal, so they pushed Bush to sign some of the stupidity that the congress was passing.
 
 
The current democratic party has made it clear that they are going to take from some and give to others. They are doing exactly that, and it is obvious. They give grants, and loans to "green" energy, (weird how the majority of them are democratic donors or politicians...) while they go after tobacco, and oil companies and small businesses with higher taxes and regulations.
 
I've brought up the way china is destroying the paper mills in America... We had two large plants in my town, and BOTH of them are going out of business by the end of the year... That is over 1,000 jobs... GONE.
 
All because we allow China to flood our market with paper that is so cheap (because china deflates their currency to make take over markets) and we end up closing plants and losing jobs and tax dollars...
 
But, we have so many that don't understand the economic impact of China manipulating their currency and a President who goes around bowing and letting them ruin our country that it is no wonder we are in the economic situation we are in now...
 
As Obama makes decisions that he knows will hurt our currency, on a race to devalue the dollar... Because that is the goal of the democratic party to devalue our dollar and play the same game china is... except it doesn't work, it just destroys your countries wealth, and kills the companies that make the country great, as those dollars that the companies have are being devalued with every trillion the government spends.
 
We are at 14 trillion in debt now... what do we have to show for that spending? And yet, the "super" commitee can't even stop FUTURE spending of 1 trillion. (because the white house wanted to blame the republicans).
 
We are in for a ROUGH time, I warned you guys long ago that it was going to get really bad, but you didn't believe me...
 
Welcome to your new reality, we have a political party in charge that rewards their friends while penalizing their enemies... And then complains when their "enemies" go out of business and stop hiring because they are sick and tired of working their tails off and having the government come and take the reward for their labor and give it to someone else.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 3:00am
Ignoring that last post of whargarghbal and lies I think I current problem is what is called the paradox of thrift. Essentially what it mean is that humans keep shooting themselves in the foot because they think times are bad even though they know that not shooting themselves in the foot will make things better.

Basically, in 2008 when McCain's econ adviser said we were in a mental recession, he was at least half right. People worrying about other people's ideas leads to bad econ policy.

Personally I'm not that upset,I hoped obama care would be more than it is. But as far as universal health care is concerned, it's as far right as you can come. But once that goes, I have my small business websites to supliment my income.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 7:34am
All I read from FE's post was "My Health ..... Obama..." then I stopped skimming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 9:47am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

2007 my health insurance rates went up 20%, 2008 they went up 25%, 2009, they went up 30%, 2010, (after obamacare) they went up 55%.
 

The target of this frustration should be insurance companies, as has been said many times before. Prices have been arbitrarily increasing since about 2004. If anything, the HCRA should have dropped prices, as the mandate to force a purchase means their customer base is widened to potentially everyone. Yet, prices and premiums have gone up. 

The companies are gouging. If you have a complaint, it's against them. 
 
Quote we hired temps as we don't have to pay their health insurance...
 

Out of curiosity, who do you think pays their health costs? 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 9:48am
Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:


Basically, in 2008 when McCain's econ adviser said we were in a mental recession, he was at least half right. People worrying about other people's ideas leads to bad econ policy.

This. 

Capitalism needs people to consume. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 9:59am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


Our energy prices have gone through the roof with the drilling ban a few years ago,


If the bans were lifted, and mass drilling began in 2012, we would not actually see any of that oil hit the market until about 2017. 

And, once on the market, it would equate to an estimated 1.6 percent increase of domestic energy production between now and 2030. At the rate we consume, and at the rate we import, 1.6 percent is essentially nothing. The estimate is that a lifted moratorium on the Pacific, Atlantic and Gulf areas would mean a difference of about $0.03 to $0.04 per-gallon over the span of 20 years. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 10:04am

Now you don't have to wonder why this site is way down on my list of places I visit anymore...

Why bother with you guys who don't exist in reality, but instead in the vaccuum of liberalism and just believe everything the media/your college professors tell you about the brilliance of liberalism.
 
Then you complain about not being able to find work...
 
It is just shocking that you could be so misled, and not even realize it.
 
Here are some links that prove what I said above.
 
Massive increase in healthcare premiums
 
 
The problem with all of those articles and studies is they are OLD, I am talking about my rates TODAY, and those increases will not hit the media for a few years, until they can get all the data and analize it. But, what do I know, right? Once you guys find out what happened with that little Obamacare regulation that put YOU back on your parents healthcare plan (up to age 26) and for some strange reason family healthcare costs skyrocketed... Oh wait, I thought we would get that for "free", like Obama promised. Don't worry in a few years the numbers will be studied and all of a sudden, you will realize what I have been telling you is true.
 
 
 
The problem with many of you is you have NO CONCEPT of profit margins in todays economy. You don't understand that businesses often are just passing dollars, not MAKING dollars, just to survive. I tell you this, but you don't believe me. Cost increases of pennies make a HUGE difference in business, and many times are the difference between profit and break even. Tomorrow is BLACK Friday. Why do they call it that? Because it takes almost an ENTIRE YEAR before the companies go from the RED (losing money) to the BLACK making money... This is a concept people have NO grasp of, they think business owners roll around in beds of cash, and are greedily keeping it all for themselves. Thinking like that is stuipidity at its finest.
 
Here this article covers what I am talking about better than I can.
 
Read this and imprint it in your memory.

"Businesses in both of these industries keep only two to three cents in profit for every dollar they sell. A typical grocery store has to sell $250,000 of groceries and a typical restaurant has to sell $78,000 of food to generate a few thousand dollars in profit."

Oh, I know, I'm making that up, right? Oh wait. http://www.sageworksinc.com/pressroom.aspx?article=457

Drilling ban and jobs lost by Obama regulations and ignoring the judicial orders to stop the ban...
 
See the problem with ignorance is that I can post all of these links that prove what I am saying, but certain people can't be bothered with facts, they instead just believe in their stupidity, even when presented with the truth over, and over, and over...
 
And like I said, if you are in the "green" energy business and you donated to Obama, you got grants and loans that other companies couldn't get...
 
The Canada pipeline that was halted by the Obama administration.
 
The Ohio oil drilling halted by Obama costing hundreds of thousands of jobs.
 
Paper mills closing in USA because of China manipulations.
 
 
 
 
I don't know why I bothered citing all of that, since I doubt anyone will actually read what I posted. So just continue to believe that liberalism will make everything better, and maybe doing the same thing over and over will result in a different outcome this time...
 
Yeah right, until YOU try and run a business where you have employees and see the economic harm that government causes you daily, I can't expect you to understand. Just keep believing the do nothings who tell you the way things are...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 10:26am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Massive increase in healthcare premiums
 

Nobody is doubting that those exist. I'm simply stating that it's the insurance companies that you ought to direct your anger to. 

And yes, I read all of those links. They all make a darn good argument as to why the HCRA is a half-assed bill - it's much, much cheaper and effective to have a legitimate socialized health care system. Those increased payments you are making are to cover the middle-men.

And I'll post this again, since it looks like you missed it: 

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:


 
Quote we hired temps as we don't have to pay their health insurance...
 

Out of curiosity, who do you think pays their health costs? 



Edited by agentwhale007 - 24 November 2011 at 10:27am
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 10:32am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 Once you guys find out what happened with that little Obamacare regulation that put YOU back on your parents healthcare plan (up to age 26)
 

That's optional, by the way. You don't have to stay on until 26 or no longer a student, you can get your own health insurance. I'm moving to my own health insurance (Thankfully lobbied by the Graduate Assistant Labor Union years ago to be "free" with a minimal once-per-year fee included in student fees) at the first of the year. 


Quote and for some strange reason family healthcare costs skyrocketed...

Because health insurance companies knew that they could continue charging the additional fees for adding children to a plan for another four years? Again, it's legal price gouging. 

Quote Oh wait, I thought we would get that for "free", like Obama promised.
 

Citations on this one? 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 10:40am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Oh wait, I thought we would get that for "free", like Obama promised.
 

Citations on this one? 
 
 




Just sayin'. Lol





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Oh wait, I thought we would get that for "free", like Obama promised.
 

Citations on this one? 
 
 


Just sayin'. Lol

It was a legitimate question, no snark intended. 

I'd heard people reference that before but not actually seen it. 

Thanks for the link, kind sir. 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 24 November 2011 at 10:48am
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 11:45am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Why bother with you guys who don't exist in reality, but instead in the vaccuum of liberalism and just believe everything the media/your college professors tell you about the brilliance of liberalism.
 
The vast majority of my business and government professors (and by that I mean 100% of them) were diehard conservatves. You can't just dismiss my (or anyone else's here) ideas as simply being liberalism, because A:) I'm not a liberal and B:) that's a ridiculously stupid argument/
 
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
Then you complain about not being able to find work...
 
 
Exactly. That makes no sense.
 
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Here are some links that prove what I said above.
 
Massive increase in healthcare premiums
 
 
The problem with all of those articles and studies is they are OLD, I am talking about my rates TODAY, and those increases will not hit the media for a few years, until they can get all the data and analize it. But, what do I know, right? Once you guys find out what happened with that little Obamacare regulation that put YOU back on your parents healthcare plan (up to age 26) and for some strange reason family healthcare costs skyrocketed... Oh wait, I thought we would get that for "free", like Obama promised. Don't worry in a few years the numbers will be studied and all of a sudden, you will realize what I have been telling you is true.
 
 
Dude...seriously. First of all, it's been acknowledged in this thread that healthcare costs are on the increase, so to keep posting links that say that is just an exercise in redundancy.
 
Secondly, the challenge here was to provide a direct link via statistics from Obama's healthcare plan to healthcare costs. Now, your first post was an informative answer to my question, and I appreciate that. This second post is just whining. Everyone is acknowledging that healthcare costs are increasing, and that could very well be speculative price gouging as a result of the healthcare plan. I'm not saying you're wrong about that, and really neither did Whale. So back off a few degrees.
 
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
The problem with many of you is you have NO CONCEPT of profit margins in todays economy. You don't understand that businesses often are just passing dollars, not MAKING dollars, just to survive. I tell you this, but you don't believe me. Cost increases of pennies make a HUGE difference in business, and many times are the difference between profit and break even. Tomorrow is BLACK Friday. Why do they call it that? Because it takes almost an ENTIRE YEAR before the companies go from the RED (losing money) to the BLACK making money... This is a concept people have NO grasp of, they think business owners roll around in beds of cash, and are greedily keeping it all for themselves. Thinking like that is stuipidity at its finest.
 
No, only idiots think that. Many of us here are business majors, I'm a business major trying to get my pre law studies out of the way, so we all understand the concept of profit margins. Of coure, there's a few holes in the way you're passing the profit margin, but otherwise everyone that's ever taken an entry level business course at a community college knows everything you just said.
 
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
Here this article covers what I am talking about better than I can.
 
Read this and imprint it in your memory.

"Businesses in both of these industries keep only two to three cents in profit for every dollar they sell. A typical grocery store has to sell $250,000 of groceries and a typical restaurant has to sell $78,000 of food to generate a few thousand dollars in profit."

 
My first jobs were in a grocery store....waaaay back the day I turned 16 when Bush was in office. Guess what? The grocery industry BARELY broke even then, and in fact has had a notoriously thin profit margin. There are exceptions, but there's a reason that companies like Wal-Mart came along and took out half the grocery industry (an exaggeration, but still) in a single blow. So again, you post a link, but that link doesn't correlate directly to your point about Obama.
 
That's your strategy though...call us all stupid and post a bunch of links that are true yet compltely unrelated
 
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

.
 
See the problem with ignorance is that I can post all of these links that prove what I am saying, but certain people can't be bothered with facts, they instead just believe in their stupidity, even when presented with the truth over, and over, and over...
 
 
You know what the problem with narcissism is? You're too self absorbed to DEBATE. You know what DEBATING is? It's where two people exchange their ideas. Ever study the dialectic in one of those liberal vacuum cleaner schools you talk about so much?
 
Of course not, you were too busy hating how your professors didn't agree with every one of your ideas. That's YOUR problem FE, since you love telling us our problems. You don't understand why you can't just strut into these threads, post some links, and have all of us bending over and apologizing that we were so misled to begin with.
 
Get over yourself dude. If you don't have the mental capacity to ignore the insult posts and respond with intelligence to those of us trying to have a real conversation with you then I suggest you take a liberal college course in GROWING THE HELL UP.
 
Statistics and facts lead to speculation, especially in the conversation of economy. While it's all good and well to think that all facts prove your ideas, in reality anyone with half a sliver of intelligence knows that there are countless theories and ideas on economy, and most of which haven't been proven on a mass scale.
 
I'm big enough to admit that there are other theories besides mine, why arent you FE? Why are you so angry that other people hold opposing ideas to your own?
 
And the worst part is....your first post was semi-informative. But your second post was just sad whining about how all these darn liberals won't wake up and be just like you and IT'S JUST NOT FAIR. All that last post needed was you to stomp your feet and scream that you were never coming back here.
 
Generally, I enjoy your post to the extent that you have conviction and that you spend time backing up your ideas. But then your narcissism kicks in and you go a manchild rant that really just paints you as immature. I don't know why I'm even telling you this, you're a grown man, you are who you are. You're old enough to know that everyone doesn't agree with you all the time, and that there left and right conservatives as much as there are left and right leaning Democrats, and that throwing out the label liberal at every argument just shows you can't combat that argument. I'm done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Oh wait, I thought we would get that for "free", like Obama promised.
 

Citations on this one? 
 
 


Just sayin'. Lol

It was a legitimate question, no snark intended. 

I'd heard people reference that before but not actually seen it. 

Thanks for the link, kind sir. 


Oh okay LOL no problemo!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2011 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 The grocery industry BARELY broke even then, and in fact has had a notoriously thin profit margin.

Grocery stores are really interesting, as far as their business practices. 

It's true that they have extremely narrow profit margins. And if you look at it, it makes sense, even from overhead. They have a lot of employees, generally. They are open for very long hours. They have to pay for large freezer storage and refrigeration storage. They, I believe, eat a portion of the unsold goods (Although I may be wrong about this). 

They're able to survive and thrive with such a narrow profit margin because of the nature of the grocery market. 

Everyone buys groceries. The customers are literally almost everyone. When a recession hits, people may buy fewer groceries, but almost everyone still buys groceries. 

So that leads to the big, big chunk of what else contributes to grocery stores riding such a thin profit margin: 

Marketing. 

Advertisements on both TV and in newspapers. Radio spots. Fliers. Offering coupons. Buy-1 Get-1 deals. Buying clubs like Kroger and Winn-Dixie operate. 

That all gets really, really expensive. 

But they know the customer base is there. They don't need to convince people to buy groceries, they need to convince people to buy groceries at their business, and to continue to do so. 

(That had nothing to do with Obama and the economy, I just dork out reading about grocery businesses).
 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 24 November 2011 at 1:10pm
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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