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ParielIsBack View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2011 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by SSOK SSOK wrote:

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

We need to stop pushing this myth that everyone needs to go to college. Everyone shouldn't go to college. I found out it wasn't for me the hard way, now I'm faced with the consequences. Expecting kids out of high school to come up with what they want to do for the rest of their lives when they have no life experience and hardly know who they are is ridiculous.


Here, here!

QFT

As for Unions, I feel that they are a great tool to ensure workers are not stepped on and abused by companies. I feel the UAW is screwing themselves over, though.

Boeing built a new plant in North Carolina because, like clockwork, their unions would walk off the job every time a contract was up and hold out for higher benefits.  Now, they might not be wrong in asking for those things, but it did cause major issues with rolling out the 747-8 and 787.  A friend's dad is retiring in a few months, and he tells stories about working through strikes (and not getting the raise) because the engineers in his department realized that every week out of work cost the money insane amounts of money.  Give skilled workers the right to accept the wage they're willing to work for, unions only effectively serve the interests of expendable workers (and the union bosses).

Also, if anything has been made clearer to many college grads during this recession, it's that they didn't need to go to college to still be unable to get a job -- with tons of debt.


Edited by ParielIsBack - 26 October 2011 at 7:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

We need to stop pushing this myth that everyone needs to go to college. Everyone shouldn't go to college. I found out it wasn't for me the hard way, now I'm faced with the consequences. Expecting kids out of high school to come up with what they want to do for the rest of their lives when they have no life experience and hardly know who they are is ridiculous.


Here, here!

I concur with the statement as well, but I wonder how much of the solution could be front-end versus back-end. 

Should we more encourage people, after high school, to determine what they want out of life before theyt think about going to a big university, like vocational programs? Or should we encourage people in high school to determine what they want at an earlier stage? 

As in, if you show an interest and aptitude in "topic A," by 10th grade, you start studying into that more while studying other subjects less. It could be anything from art to engineering to math to writing. 

Either way, both solutions will require public funds (A hefty amount) and a cultural paradigm shift (Which we cannot pay for).

But needed, I think. As I agree with the both of you. 

It's just a matter of how to fix it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 9:12am
Oh, and on the topic of the OWS (Since that is what this thread is actually about), there is a fund running around the Internet to help donate money to the Marine veteran who was hit in the head with a tear gas canister in Oakland at close range. 

He has a fractured skull and brain swelling, apparently. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 9:23am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:


Should we more encourage people, after high school, to determine what they want out of life before theyt think about going to a big university, like vocational programs? Or should we encourage people in high school to determine what they want at an earlier stage? 

As in, if you show an interest and aptitude in "topic A," by 10th grade, you start studying into that more while studying other subjects less. It could be anything from art to engineering to math to writing. 

I spoke with a Geman exchange student once and he made it sound like they had something pretty similiar to this. Essentially, you had the kids that were put on track to go to college and the kids that weren't. I think we sort of have this to an extent already, at least locally. In our school district we have a fairly decent number of kids that beginning in HS can go to the local vocational school instead of attending classes. They actually come in to the school here and than catch another bus that takes them to the vocational school about 10 minutes away. I think where the kids get lost are the ones that really just have no clue what they want to do. They neither want to go to college, nor do they have the ambition to take courses to teach them a trade. Unfortunately, we do have a fair amount of kids that graduate with little or no direction and so so grades, go to school at one of the 4 or 5 local colleges/universities in the area for a couple of years, then drop out with still no clue as to what they want to do.  I actually blame the guidance counselors in our district for a lot of this. We have one each for MS and HS, and neither is worth the $60k+ that they are being paid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 10:01am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

We need to stop pushing this myth that everyone needs to go to college. Everyone shouldn't go to college. I found out it wasn't for me the hard way, now I'm faced with the consequences. Expecting kids out of high school to come up with what they want to do for the rest of their lives when they have no life experience and hardly know who they are is ridiculous.


Here, here!

I concur with the statement as well, but I wonder how much of the solution could be front-end versus back-end. 

Should we more encourage people, after high school, to determine what they want out of life before theyt think about going to a big university, like vocational programs? Or should we encourage people in high school to determine what they want at an earlier stage? 

As in, if you show an interest and aptitude in "topic A," by 10th grade, you start studying into that more while studying other subjects less. It could be anything from art to engineering to math to writing. 

Either way, both solutions will require public funds (A hefty amount) and a cultural paradigm shift (Which we cannot pay for).

But needed, I think. As I agree with the both of you. 

It's just a matter of how to fix it. 


The problem with this Whale, is (as OPBN touched on) the issue that there is a large amount of HS students that honestly have no clue what they want to do, including myself last year. I am now in CC studying I.T., but after studying the networking portion of the curriculum I am having doubts about making a career of this. I am basically back to square one and I am lucky CC didn't cost me too much. I believe what OPBN said about the guidance counsellors, but I think it should go more than that and actually have one class each year of high school (or at least grade 11-12) devoted to career selection. In the class there should be opportunities for the students to find jobs they think they will be interested in, including university educated ones, and have the students go in depth with those job selections to see whether or not they want to study for it in secondary education. The class should also teach financing to be sure the students know what they are getting into with student loans/lines of credit. I think it would be an eye-opener to the youth to see that some careers are completely different from what they are portrayed as on TV.


Edit: I see thats basically exactly what you were suggesting, now that I see your post. But the difference I think is that it shouldn't be a locked-in thing. Students should be able to change their job focus throughout the class as they research the different careers. What I'm saying is, if they think they are interested in mechanics or philosophy at first, they shouldn't have to focus just on that one subject throughout the years. They should be open to different careers if you get what I'm saying.


Edited by Rofl_Mao - 27 October 2011 at 10:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 10:10am
Oddly enough, my daughter who is 8th grade has brought home a few papers that have dealt with occupation selection. In one, they had to think of 3 occupations that they might have an interest in that started with each letter of the alphabet. They also took some sort of aptitude test which pissed her off because she didn't get anything even close that sounded interesting to her.
 
I have to second the financial class aspect. I think there should be a "Real World" class where kids have to balance make a budget, balance a checkbook, write a resume, fill out college applications, learn childcare, etc. Yeah, I know a lot of this should be taught at home, but honestly, I have my doubts about most of the parents around here have a clue about most of these things themselves. Heck, I'm not sure if I could even write a resume anymore.
 
On a more related note, I saw another couple of segments on the news regarding student loans and the occutards. This seems to be more and more the focus of the "movement". They were saying that the average debt by graduating college students was like $25k or so. If true, I really don't see the big deal. Seems like all the college students need to do is get a job and live with their parents for a couple of years until they pay their loans off. I wonder if part of the issue today is the mindset that once you graduate from college, you immediately have to move away and jump feet first into independence. While I applaud the idea, maybe it's time to become more extended family oriented. Take my brother in law for example. He graduated from college with his 4 year degree and a little debt. He went on to graduate school to get his PA degree and came out with $60-80k of debt.  Granted, he had a very marketable degree and immediately got a good paying job, but rather than trying to live on his own, he moved back in with his parents and paid off all of his bills. He actually went on to save and adiditonal amount of money and put a 50% downpayment on his house. Within two years, he paid it off.
 
Which brings up the a subject we have discussed before... degrees that pay off vs degrees that don't. I wonder how many of the pissed off occupiers are screaming and yelling about their college debt have Art History, Philosophy, or some other degree that rarely ends up in a job other than in academia?


Edited by oldpbnoob - 27 October 2011 at 10:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 11:29am
OPBN hit several points I've been thinking about.

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Oddly enough, my daughter who is 8th grade has brought home a few papers that have dealt with occupation selection.

When I first read this I took it as the teachers handing out papers detailing how to select targets for protest occupation. LOL (FE's been a bad influence.)

In one, they had to think of 3 occupations that they might have an interest in that started with each letter of the alphabet. They also took some sort of aptitude test which pissed her off because she didn't get anything even close that sounded interesting to her.

I'm with her on that.  The VA made me take similar tests before I went back to school.  I scored well and was told I could pick any vocation I wanted.  Once I picked, they asked where I was planning on living.  (Most veterans apparently return to their home states.)  When I stated I was staying in Montana, they suddenly limited my choices because of the poor economy up here.  (I could be an accountant*, a dental technician**, or an x-ray tech.***)  Not being happy with these choices, I ended up with selecting a major and minors that allowed a lot of flexibility in employment.
 
I have to second the financial class aspect. I think there should be a "Real World" class where kids have to balance make a budget, balance a checkbook, write a resume, fill out college applications, learn childcare, etc.

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes. . . . oh, and Yes.  I used to deal with so many young troops whose parents had done pretty much everything for them and were completely ill-prepared for the real world.  My favorite was a young lady who was on the verge of losing rank/pay for repeated violations of room cleanliness standards.  (These are health/safety issues as well as being a military standards issue.)  When talking to her, something her supervisor had apparently not done, it came out that she had never had to clean a room because her mom had done it for her up to the age of 20 when she joined the AF.

Yeah, I know a lot of this should be taught at home, but honestly, I have my doubts . . .

I don't have any doubts, I know.  I spent a lot of time teaching resume writing and assigning junior supervisors to help with checkbooks and budgets.

. . . about most of the parents around here have a clue about most of these things themselves. Heck, I'm not sure if I could even write a resume anymore.
 
On a more related note, I saw another couple of segments on the news regarding student loans and the occutards. This seems to be more and more the focus of the "movement".

If it is, I have no sympathy for them.  You take out loans, you pay them . . . period.

They were saying that the average debt by graduating college students was like $25k or so. If true, I really don't see the big deal. Seems like all the college students need to do is get a job and live with their parents for a couple of years until they pay their loans off.

As a former parent; I don't think so.  (Will I help them out, sure . . . but they don't need to be in the house.)

I wonder if part of the issue today is the mindset that once you graduate from college, you immediately have to move away and jump feet first into independence.

Maybe, but I think part of it is that they have unrealistic expectations as well.  My wife has a lot of experience as an accountant and the biggest issue she sees with new graduates is they expect to come into large businesses and immediately become CFOs or the equivalent.  Some get disillusioned and leave for lower paying jobs at smaller institutions where they get to do more decision makers and some get asked to leave because they, thinking they know better, make a habit of ignoring policies and superiors.

While I applaud the idea, maybe it's time to become more extended family oriented. Take my brother in law for example. He graduated from college with his 4 year degree and a little debt. He went on to graduate school to get his PA degree and came out with $60-80k of debt.  Granted, he had a very marketable degree and immediately got a good paying job, but rather than trying to live on his own, he moved back in with his parents and paid off all of his bills. He actually went on to save and adiditonal amount of money and put a 50% downpayment on his house. Within two years, he paid it off.

They can do the same thing by just being smart with their money.  News flash recent graduates . . . big screen TVs, new cars, and the latest/fanciest communications electronics are not needs; they are wants . . . wants that are best put on hold until one is financially secure.
 
Which brings up the a subject we have discussed before... degrees that pay off vs degrees that don't. I wonder how many of the pissed off occupiers are screaming and yelling about their college debt have Art History, Philosophy, or some other degree that rarely ends up in a job other than in academia?

This.  I saw a lot of this while going to school.  (And that was at a college that was fairly conservative and real-world oriented.)


*One accountant in the family is enough.
**I am not sticking my fingers in peoples mouths.  (That's just asking to be among the first victims of a zombie outbreak.)
***X-ray tech seemed really interesting . . . so of course I was disqualified by my medical history regarding back injuries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 11:31am
I  think OPBN hit the nail on the head.  My sister moved back in with my parents after college (with a degree in Islamic art) and now (8 years later) has a $400k house.  I plan on moving home to work after I graduate, although I have no debt so I'll just be saving money.

I do wonder how many (few?) people with technical degrees are involved in these protests.  My gut says very few.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 11:35am
I'll go in-depth with a discussion of how to restructure high school education in a bit, but I'm behind on everything in my life and will write about this first:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:


Which brings up the a subject we have discussed before... degrees that pay off vs degrees that don't. I wonder how many of the pissed off occupiers are screaming and yelling about their college debt have Art History, Philosophy, or some other degree that rarely ends up in a job other than in academia?

I've seen this bounced around a lot during the OWS discussions. I don't quite agree. Determining if a major, or degree, or focus pays off is not really the easiest thing to do. 

For one, what are we defining "pay-off" to mean? Immediate ability to get a job? Long-term ability to hold a job? Ability to critically think? Pragmatic skills? On what criteria are we judging the output of these degrees? 

Pragmatically, the liberal arts, social sciences, and other non-hard-science degrees have quite a bit of employment possibility. Especially philosophy. Quite a few business leaders, industry leaders, market analysts, etc. hold philosophy degrees. Namely because it's so geared to critical analysis and logical formation. 

No, it doesn't have the immediate payoff that something like engineering has, but it also doesn't have a glass ceiling - it's a top-down useful set of knowledge. Statistically, philosophy degrees are used as a bolster for law degrees.  Quite a bit has been said on this subject. 

Not to mention, the Chronicle of Higher Education's report a while back about the growth of liberal-arts-based interdisciplinary programs, and how employers are trending to them due to their ability to know a little about a lot, so to speak. 

Now, idealistically, I think it's unfortunate to judge a degree or focus simply on short-term job applicability, as that's not really what the academy is supposed to be or do. I know this is not how it actually is, but again, I'm speaking idealistically here. College is supposed to be about learning. Gaining knowledge. Gaining skills in critical thinking, logic, and structured analysis. It's not really supposed to be, and never was supposed to be, skills-based job training. 

Which is why it's disheartening to hear people judge a college education based only on the short-term criteria of cubicle-based widget making. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 11:41am
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

 I think there should be a "Real World" class where kids have to balance make a budget, balance a checkbook, write a resume, fill out college applications, learn childcare, etc.
 

100 percent agree. No doubt. 
 
Quote I wonder if part of the issue today is the mindset that once you graduate from college, you immediately have to move away and jump feet first into independence. While I applaud the idea, maybe it's time to become more extended family oriented.
 

While I don't really have an opinion one way or another on this topic, it will be interesting to see if this becomes the case, slowly, in society after this recession. As more people move back in with their parents, or stay close enough to be able to retain support from their parents, I wonder if we'll see more of a cultural shift to the Asian (Mostly Japanese) mindset, where it's OK to retain the classical family unit for a longer period of time. 

I think we're seeing some of this already with a person's ability to stay on their parent's insurance until 26. 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 11:46am
Pardon the triple post. 

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

 
If it is, I have no sympathy for them.  You take out loans, you pay them . . . period.
 

I concur on this point. I don't agree with the people wishing to have their loans somehow magically vanish into thin air. I believe they are severely delusional.  

However, I can agree with one of the points brought up by the OWS about student loans (And I think Stratoaxe on here as well). And that is to add the ability to continue to defer the loan, or to defer increasing interest levels, until employment rather than graduation. 

So, some involved in OWS are not demanding to have their debt go away - they want to repay it, and have stated so publicly. They just want to repay it once they have a job in order to make money to repay it. 

Especially in this economy, it seems worthy of consideration. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 11:53am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

 On what criteria are we judging the output of these degrees? 

Ability to get a job and pay off their student loans for one. The whole picture needs to be assessed. Take this example: I personally know a young lady that has nearly $80k or so in student loans that she accrued while going to a private university in order to attain her degree in "social work".  While the degree is one that pretty much is a guarantee to work it =/= the potential output of the job. IMO, she should have lived at home, gone to a community college or local state university and come out with the same degree and probably 1/4 of the student loans.  Or another example is a friends younger brother that attended Dartmouth to get a secondary teaching degree. Luckily his father was a doctor and he footed the bill, but I am sure there are others out there seeking the same that are not as well heeled. These are both examples of the right degree, but wrong method of getting them IMO. I do however, also know people with degrees in the humanities that are sweeping floors and flipping burgers after graduating with a fair amount of debt. One individual is a Hibachi chef after graduating from the University of Findlay with a philosophy degree, thus my inclusion of that specific degree. I may be wrong on the exact degree as he is my brothers friend, but I know it was something along those lines and he has yet to get a job in his field 6 years after graduation.
 
I have heard that a lot of companies are trending towards liberal arts degrees, this has actually been happening for a while, but seems like a risky proposition unless you have a minor in something solid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 12:23pm
The occupiers had a rally in my hometown the other day.  10 people showed up. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

The occupiers had a rally in my hometown the other day.  10 people showed up. 

Yes, Occupy Detroit sounded like it was just as successful. Nobody lives/works in Detroit anymore, everything/one has moved top the suburbs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

The occupiers had a rally in my hometown the other day.  10 people showed up. 


I think this can be translated to pretty much any other city in the country. There may be thousands of protesters in NYC, but compare it to the overall population and its a very small number.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2011 at 12:56pm
In my mind, they should all be on Wall Street, no matter if the street called Wall Street in a particular town is a small street in a sleepy suburb. 

Just for the humor element. 

My brain is messed up. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2011 at 12:52pm
If I lived on Wall Street in my town, I'd be the guy running the hot dog stand and price-gouging for both food products and restroom usage.


Just for the irony.


Apparently my brain is messed up as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ammolord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2011 at 6:59pm
Saw this on my facebook, thought it seemed intersting. Lets see you're take on it.
 
The caption: "We are Wall Street" - This flier was dropped on Occupy protestors in Chicago
 
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Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:






Dude that show is amazing. I watch it every day.
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