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Herman Cain is my front runner... What about you?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2011 at 1:04pm
If everyone is forced to pay taxes, wouldn't this pretty much assure that there would have to be a rise in pay?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2011 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I think there is a problem with your bread example due to the fact that most of those entities would be purchasing goods as part of a production process or for resale and therefore do not pay taxes on those items.

 
Thank you for proving my point... The public DOES NOT understand all the hidden taxes that are now a MAJOR part of the cost of EVERY product produced.
 
You only think of ONE type of tax... And yet, do all those companies NOT pay any taxes to get the materials to the baker? Of course they pay taxes, they hire employees to drive the trucks, run the equipment that makes the flour, pick up the eggs, property taxes, ss taxes, income taxes... ALL of which are "hidden" into the costs of each piece of inventory that goes into the loaf of bread... But, as a society we pretend all those taxes are burdened by the "rich" business owner...
 
Ahh, NO, WE PAY THOSE TAXES in higher costs for products.
 
Reagan said that a loaf of bread has 151 taxes included in it accounting for more than HALF of the cost of that bread... And that was in the mid 70's... Has the tax code gotten bigger or smaller since then? (the tax code NEVER gets smaller, "special" rights are written by every congress, and new taxes are always being discussed and passed, or regulations whatever you want to call them).
 
 
Imagine if you cut the costs of everything by half...
 
That is what the 9-9-9 plan would do as it eliminates all of those federal taxes... Then we would just have property taxes (a state issue) and state taxes to deal with...
 
 
 
As to your comment about raising pay to pay for the taxes... The poor would not pay their 9 percent. And the lowering of the taxes on the backs of business would change the cost per employee significantly, making it cheaper to have employees... So yes, they would have MORE money that they could pocket, or lower prices, or raise pay...
 
Free enterprise would dictate the results. Which would be strange for sure...


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 19 October 2011 at 1:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2011 at 3:19pm
Not saying Cain is the antichrist....
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2011 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Not saying Cain is the antichrist....
 
 
Racist. LOL.
 
Yeah FE, I know about the Reagan example. It's not how you stated it.
 
Regardless, until someone sits down and draws out something clear and concise as to how much revenue it will raise and whether is will be able to sustain current social programs such as SS, Medicare and others, I am skeptical. I also have read that it does away with capital gains taxes, which I am not in favor of, especially since so much of the top percentages wealth is actually tied up investments where the dividends are classified as captial gains. Income is income no matter where it comes from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2011 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:


Regardless, until someone sits down and draws out something clear and concise as to how much revenue it will raise and whether is will be able to sustain current social programs such as SS, Medicare and others, I am skeptical.

There has been a lot of legitimate analysis on it. Most of which shows it is silly at best, harmfully simplistic and regressive at worst. 

Yes, it seems bad that tax code is complex. But I'd much rather examine and change the existing constructed and thought-out tax code than attempt to use what amounts to bumper-sticker logic. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2011 at 6:11pm
Oldpbnoob, here's one of the more analytical examinations of the plan: 

It's written by a law professor at USC. 

Here's the abstract: (But the whole thing is worth a read. It's only 25 pages)

Quote Presidential candidate Herman Cain has proposed replacing current law’s income, payroll and estate taxes with his “9-9-9 Plan” - a 9 percent “individual flat tax,” a 9 percent “business flat tax,” and a 9 percent sales tax. This essay analyzes the components of the 9-9-9 Plan. Contrary to casual impressions, the Plan could be expected to raise substantial amounts of revenue, but does so largely by skewing downwards the distribution of tax burdens when compared to current law. 
The 9-9-9 Plan functions as an effective 27 percent payroll tax on wage income. By imposing an effective 27 percent flat tax on wage income, the 9-9-9 Plan would materially raise the tax burden on many low- and middle-income taxpayers, who today face little or no tax under the income tax, and a 15.3 percent effective payroll tax burden. The Plan apparently offers lower tax rates (17.2 percent) for labor income attributable to owner-employees of firms, because they can extract their labor earnings as returns to capital. 

The Plan operates as an ersatz variant on standard consumption taxes with respect to capital income, exempting normal returns on equity from tax and imposing tax at an effective 17.2 percent rate on economic rents. Finally, the Plan’s sales tax acts as a one-time tax on existing wealth. The relative undesirability of that consequence depends on what one chooses as the current-law comparable.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2011 at 6:34pm
*cough* generally speaking wholesale food sales aren't taxed so the bread thing is bull-spit anyway *cough*

Cain couldn't even figure out a simple way to talk about his "simplified" tax code in the debates last night. It's a two person race for the republican primary. Romney and Perry. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.
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Anyone who thinks a black man will ever be elected president is insane.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2011 at 8:55am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Oldpbnoob, here's one of the more analytical examinations of the plan: 

It's written by a law professor at USC. 

Here's the abstract: (But the whole thing is worth a read. It's only 25 pages)

Quote Presidential candidate Herman Cain has proposed replacing current law’s income, payroll and estate taxes with his “9-9-9 Plan” - a 9 percent “individual flat tax,” a 9 percent “business flat tax,” and a 9 percent sales tax. This essay analyzes the components of the 9-9-9 Plan. Contrary to casual impressions, the Plan could be expected to raise substantial amounts of revenue, but does so largely by skewing downwards the distribution of tax burdens when compared to current law. 
The 9-9-9 Plan functions as an effective 27 percent payroll tax on wage income. By imposing an effective 27 percent flat tax on wage income, the 9-9-9 Plan would materially raise the tax burden on many low- and middle-income taxpayers, who today face little or no tax under the income tax, and a 15.3 percent effective payroll tax burden. The Plan apparently offers lower tax rates (17.2 percent) for labor income attributable to owner-employees of firms, because they can extract their labor earnings as returns to capital. 

The Plan operates as an ersatz variant on standard consumption taxes with respect to capital income, exempting normal returns on equity from tax and imposing tax at an effective 17.2 percent rate on economic rents. Finally, the Plan’s sales tax acts as a one-time tax on existing wealth. The relative undesirability of that consequence depends on what one chooses as the current-law comparable.


  Thanks. Saw a report on PBS by the Factchecker guy at the Washington post and got some better insight. Also read a few other articles and it seems like the consensus is that the tax burden is going to be spread out more. I am not really all that unhappy about that, but it does give the upper end of the tax payers a substantial break as they don't spend as large a percentage of what they make and Cains plan eliminates the Captial Gains taxes and estate taxes which I am not a fan of. It's a pity, because I actually like Cain, I thought he was a straight shooter, doesn't appear so.
 
I'd say I wasnt going to vote for him, but by the time the primaries reach here it's already narrowed down.


Edited by oldpbnoob - 20 October 2011 at 8:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 8:20am
More info just released about the 9-9-9 plan...
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 8:29am
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

 . . . Cains plan eliminates the Captial Gains taxes and estate taxes which I am not a fan of.

That seems to be the thing with this 9-9-9 silliness (And, often times this seems to be the case, the more you try to condense something that is rather complex, the more silly it gets): 

It does have some decent ideas. They're just sprinkled about in a heap of other pretty rotten consequences. 

If we decide not to have a capital gains tax, or estate tax, of which my personal mind isn't really made up one way or another, it's better to push for editing our existing tax code than to go with bumper sticker logistics. 



Edited by agentwhale007 - 21 October 2011 at 8:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 9:28am
So editing 10 million words full of special deals for special people is a good thing?
 
But, throwing out all of that corruption, and starting over is a bad thing?...
 
Anything proposed would have to pass the congress, so it really doesn't matter what the plan says now... It would be different by the time it was put into law.
 
I just think it is clear that we have a system IN PLACE that is completely corrupt, did you see GE's earnings they just posted... How much did they pay in taxes this year...
 
yeah, that current tax code is clearly something that lawyers, and accountants would want to stay!


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 21 October 2011 at 9:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 9:36am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

So editing 10 million words full of special deals for special people is a good thing?
 

Legally adjusting, sure. It's been done in the past. The tax code is certainly different that how it was in times past, especially considering the record low level of percentage of collected taxes in recent times. 

Subsidies come and go. Tax breaks come and go, and are adjusted. If they were not, all the charts that get thrown around in taxation threads wouldn't be worth anything - they'd be flat lines. 

The ability for a code system, like taxes, to be adjusted is one of the benefits of the system. 

Scrapping it for a regressive, hardly thought-out bumper sticker phrase is indeed rather silly. 

Quote But, throwing out all of that corruption, and starting over is a bad thing?...
 

Silly was the word I used. 
 
Quote did you see GE's earnings they just posted... How much did they pay in taxes this year...
 

I've got no problems with taxing GE, and other large corporations, well above what their current rate is. 

I'm glad you support me on that one. 
 
Quote yeah, that current tax code is clearly something that lawyers, and accountants would want to stay!

Is that supposed to make it bad somehow? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 10:00am
I guess I am crazy to think that "all men are created equal" therefore all men should be taxed fairly...
 
something about "life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness" that just strikes me as odd, that SOME get special deals because of their influence on lawmakers...
 
Currently the rich pay the bulk of the taxes, in a scale that everyone agrees taxes the rich much higher than the lower income who many pay NOTHING...
 
So we already have left the will of the constitution years ago... Seems like the best way to get rid of the chrony capitalism, is to GET RID of the current system that is CLEARLY so corrupt...
 
Calling the 9-9-9 plan silly is just feeding into meme that we can't make a major change to a corrupt system, we have to just pick and choose winners and losers...
 
And you know how I feel about that.

This plan is FAIR. And isn't that the goal? Fairness? Did you see that the plan includes NO TAXES on capital investments IF AND ONLY IF, the capital investments were MANUFACTURED IN THE USA...
 
That is just silly...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 10:10am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

I guess I am crazy to think that "all men are created equal" therefore all men should be taxed fairly...
 

The definitions of "fair" we are both examining are not the same. 

I'd rather have a pragmatically and economically smart-designed system than one based on ideology. 

Quote something about "life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness" that just strikes me as odd, that SOME get special deals because of their influence on lawmakers...
 

I highly doubt you'd be pleased with the result of ending all tax exemptions and subsidies on any scale. 

Quote Currently the rich pay the bulk of the taxes, in a scale that everyone agrees taxes the rich much higher than the lower income
 

Currently the rich also have more wealth.

Quote who many pay NOTHING...
 

Pragmatic economic construction trumps ideology. 

Many of those who do not make enough to pay taxes - the poor, young, elderly, etc. - are a benefit to the economy when they don't have to pay some Federal taxes. It means they have money that will be liquidated and spent into the market, as opposed to hoarded. 

Not to mention this is most likely intentional conflation of concepts on your behalf. 

The poor, who don't make enough to pay some Federal taxes, still pay other taxes, particularly state taxes and sales taxes. And, they spend a larger percentage of their earnings on said taxes than those with more. It's mathematics. 


Quote  that is CLEARLY so corrupt...

Show your work please. 
 
Quote Calling the 9-9-9 plan silly is just feeding into meme that we can't make a major change to a corrupt system, we have to just pick and choose winners and losers...
 

I'm adding the whole "pick and choose winners" thing you repeat on the list of things like "Liberalism" and "causation" that you don't seem to understand. 

 
Quote  This plan is FAIR.

To whom?

Quote And isn't that the goal? Fairness?
 

I'll take stability over ideology. 

Quote Did you see that the plan includes NO TAXES on capital investments IF AND ONLY IF, the capital investments were MANUFACTURED IN THE USA...
 
That is just silly...

It's inherently anti-capitalistic and anti-free enterprise. 

So, you're putting your weight behind a system that supports anti-capitalistic protectionism? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 10:35am
and again, the poor don't have to pay the tax under Cains plan... You really should read it...
 
 
 
Actually, we don't have a "free enterprise" system. As I have told you many, many times in the past, China manipulates their currency, and floods America with low priced products, through corrupt government interaction to the trade system by changing the "cost" of products to a point that they lose money on every purchase... But, the people can't do anything about it as they aren't in charge, they just live in a poor standard of living country in little tiny houses and deal with it... 
 
So the free enterprise system would still be in place, in this system, you would just have to pay more if you purchase capital investments from out of the country, where currency manipulations are common.

Today, paper is coming into the US market that is forcing US paper manufacturers out of business. They price the paper MUCH lower than they can manufacture it in the states, and what does that do? Well, the paper mills in the US close down. Now you are welcome too research this phenomenon, but I can tell you as I see the US paper mill lists shrink every year, that hundreds of thousands of jobs have been lost to this manipulation of currency that other countries do with regularity. It is the main reason there is such a trade imbalance right now with China, and other asian countries.
 
In case you hadn't noticed, China is communist. The businesses are TOLD what they can and can't do by the government, who also subsidizes the industries to get a larger share of worldwide demand.
 
Now liberals want to do the same thing (example all the "green" stimulus money spent) except they aren't in control of everything in the US, so the massive money that it would take to do this successfully isn't available to them, and China just beats them at their own game... And it fails, and the US loses Billions.
 
We aren't a communist country with one ruler who makes all the rules... (even though Øbama has tried to bypass congress on countless things). So all of these green businesses will be in trouble unless he can raise the cost of our energy to make their business models successful... Ahh, the EPA forcing coal plants to shut down, now makes more sense, huh... (without the approval of congress...)
 
Guess, what, that hurts all other business as he is now finding out, as they can't compete in their businesses with all of these manipulations to OUR free enterprise system. It is destroying it from within.
 
 
 
As to the show your work comment. Look at Solyndra and the way they got their loan, then got it reworked so that the democratic supporters were "protected" when it was clear it was going to fail... look at sunpower, look at the attacks on Gibson, look at GE not paying taxes and the president being on Øbama's "jobs" panel, look at the new ABC report on the latest "green" scam with the cars being made in FINLAND, look at the unions who were GIVEN stock in the new GM company, and Chrysler... All examples of Chrony capitalism and products of the "special rights for his friends, while penalizing his enemies" of the Obama administration.


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 21 October 2011 at 10:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 10:48am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


 
As I have told you many, many times in the past, China . . .
 

So all products sold in the U.S., not made in the U.S., are from China? 

Quote So the free enterprise system would still be in place, in this system, you would just have to pay more if you purchase capital investments from out of the country,

Confused So it'd be a free enterprise system except where it wouldn't be?

Quote Today, paper is coming into the US market that is forcing US paper manufacturers out of business. They price the paper MUCH lower than they can manufacture it in the states, and what does that do? Well, the paper mills in the US close down.
 

That's capitalism. You have to take the good with the bad. 
 
Quote In case you hadn't noticed, China is communist.
 

China is a communist country, in that it has a communist federal government structure. Their economy is rather capitalistic, especially as of late. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveEllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Today, paper is coming into the US market that is forcing US paper manufacturers out of business. They price the paper MUCH lower than they can manufacture it in the states, and what does that do? Well, the paper mills in the US close down.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 12:47pm
 
 
 
"Since 2000, China has increased its paper output threefold, which seems like a daunting task given the fact that China’s forest base is the smallest in the world per capita, it has an already saturated domestic paper market and very little competitive advantage, even in labor costs.

Instead, China’s growth has been fueled through illegal subsidies, mostly in the form of tax breaks, loans - some of which are not expected to be paid back - and discounted electricity and raw materials.

From 2002 to 2009, the Chinese government poured $33.1 billion into what should be an unproductive industry. But, with the help of government subsidies, China was able to ride export-driven growth to become the world’s leading producer of paper products.

In the same time frame that China pumped $33 billion into its paper industry, U.S. employment in the industry fell 29 percent, from 557,000 workers to just 398,000. That amounts to a seven year total of 167,000 jobs lost for an annual average of nearly 24,000 jobs in the industry."

 
Weird... that is just what I was saying...
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2011 at 12:57pm
We're measuring forests per capita now?  Surely there is a better way, like, I dunno, maybe a unit of area? 



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