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Herman Cain is my front runner... What about you? |
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oldpbnoob 
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Not old, Not noob. May be Dave's grandma Joined: 04 February 2008 Location: Yankee Stadium Status: Offline Points: 5669 |
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 Posted: 19 October 2011 at 1:04pm |
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If everyone is forced to pay taxes, wouldn't this pretty much assure that there would have to be a rise in pay?
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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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FreeEnterprise
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 1:51pm |
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Thank you for proving my point... The public DOES NOT understand all the hidden taxes that are now a MAJOR part of the cost of EVERY product produced.
You only think of ONE type of tax... And yet, do all those companies NOT pay any taxes to get the materials to the baker? Of course they pay taxes, they hire employees to drive the trucks, run the equipment that makes the flour, pick up the eggs, property taxes, ss taxes, income taxes... ALL of which are "hidden" into the costs of each piece of inventory that goes into the loaf of bread... But, as a society we pretend all those taxes are burdened by the "rich" business owner...
Ahh, NO, WE PAY THOSE TAXES in higher costs for products.
Reagan said that a loaf of bread has 151 taxes included in it accounting for more than HALF of the cost of that bread... And that was in the mid 70's... Has the tax code gotten bigger or smaller since then? (the tax code NEVER gets smaller, "special" rights are written by every congress, and new taxes are always being discussed and passed, or regulations whatever you want to call them).
Imagine if you cut the costs of everything by half...
That is what the 9-9-9 plan would do as it eliminates all of those federal taxes... Then we would just have property taxes (a state issue) and state taxes to deal with...
As to your comment about raising pay to pay for the taxes... The poor would not pay their 9 percent. And the lowering of the taxes on the backs of business would change the cost per employee significantly, making it cheaper to have employees... So yes, they would have MORE money that they could pocket, or lower prices, or raise pay...
Free enterprise would dictate the results. Which would be strange for sure... Edited by FreeEnterprise - 19 October 2011 at 1:53pm |
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stratoaxe
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 3:19pm |
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oldpbnoob
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 3:25pm |
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Yeah FE, I know about the Reagan example. It's not how you stated it.
Regardless, until someone sits down and draws out something clear and concise as to how much revenue it will raise and whether is will be able to sustain current social programs such as SS, Medicare and others, I am skeptical. I also have read that it does away with capital gains taxes, which I am not in favor of, especially since so much of the top percentages wealth is actually tied up investments where the dividends are classified as captial gains. Income is income no matter where it comes from.
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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 6:04pm |
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There has been a lot of legitimate analysis on it. Most of which shows it is silly at best, harmfully simplistic and regressive at worst. Yes, it seems bad that tax code is complex. But I'd much rather examine and change the existing constructed and thought-out tax code than attempt to use what amounts to bumper-sticker logic.
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 6:11pm |
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Oldpbnoob, here's one of the more analytical examinations of the plan:
It's written by a law professor at USC. Here's the abstract: (But the whole thing is worth a read. It's only 25 pages)
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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tallen702
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 6:34pm |
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*cough* generally speaking wholesale food sales aren't taxed so the bread thing is bull-spit anyway *cough*
Cain couldn't even figure out a simple way to talk about his "simplified" tax code in the debates last night. It's a two person race for the republican primary. Romney and Perry. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. |
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ParielIsBack
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 7:45pm |
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Anyone who thinks a black man will ever be elected president is insane.
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BU Engineering 2012
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oldpbnoob
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Posted: 20 October 2011 at 8:55am |
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I'd say I wasnt going to vote for him, but by the time the primaries reach here it's already narrowed down. Edited by oldpbnoob - 20 October 2011 at 8:56am |
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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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FreeEnterprise
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 8:20am |
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More info just released about the 9-9-9 plan...
Unions are furious...
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 8:29am |
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That seems to be the thing with this 9-9-9 silliness (And, often times this seems to be the case, the more you try to condense something that is rather complex, the more silly it gets): It does have some decent ideas. They're just sprinkled about in a heap of other pretty rotten consequences. If we decide not to have a capital gains tax, or estate tax, of which my personal mind isn't really made up one way or another, it's better to push for editing our existing tax code than to go with bumper sticker logistics. Edited by agentwhale007 - 21 October 2011 at 8:29am |
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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FreeEnterprise
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 9:28am |
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So editing 10 million words full of special deals for special people is a good thing?
But, throwing out all of that corruption, and starting over is a bad thing?...
Anything proposed would have to pass the congress, so it really doesn't matter what the plan says now... It would be different by the time it was put into law.
I just think it is clear that we have a system IN PLACE that is completely corrupt, did you see GE's earnings they just posted... How much did they pay in taxes this year...
yeah, that current tax code is clearly something that lawyers, and accountants would want to stay! Edited by FreeEnterprise - 21 October 2011 at 9:29am |
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 9:36am |
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Legally adjusting, sure. It's been done in the past. The tax code is certainly different that how it was in times past, especially considering the record low level of percentage of collected taxes in recent times. Subsidies come and go. Tax breaks come and go, and are adjusted. If they were not, all the charts that get thrown around in taxation threads wouldn't be worth anything - they'd be flat lines. The ability for a code system, like taxes, to be adjusted is one of the benefits of the system. Scrapping it for a regressive, hardly thought-out bumper sticker phrase is indeed rather silly.
Silly was the word I used.
I've got no problems with taxing GE, and other large corporations, well above what their current rate is. I'm glad you support me on that one.
Is that supposed to make it bad somehow? |
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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FreeEnterprise
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 10:00am |
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I guess I am crazy to think that "all men are created equal" therefore all men should be taxed fairly...
something about "life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness" that just strikes me as odd, that SOME get special deals because of their influence on lawmakers...
Currently the rich pay the bulk of the taxes, in a scale that everyone agrees taxes the rich much higher than the lower income who many pay NOTHING...
So we already have left the will of the constitution years ago... Seems like the best way to get rid of the chrony capitalism, is to GET RID of the current system that is CLEARLY so corrupt...
Calling the 9-9-9 plan silly is just feeding into meme that we can't make a major change to a corrupt system, we have to just pick and choose winners and losers...
And you know how I feel about that.
This plan is FAIR. And isn't that the goal? Fairness? Did you see that the plan includes NO TAXES on capital investments IF AND ONLY IF, the capital investments were MANUFACTURED IN THE USA... That is just silly...
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 10:10am |
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The definitions of "fair" we are both examining are not the same. I'd rather have a pragmatically and economically smart-designed system than one based on ideology.
I highly doubt you'd be pleased with the result of ending all tax exemptions and subsidies on any scale.
Currently the rich also have more wealth.
Pragmatic economic construction trumps ideology. Many of those who do not make enough to pay taxes - the poor, young, elderly, etc. - are a benefit to the economy when they don't have to pay some Federal taxes. It means they have money that will be liquidated and spent into the market, as opposed to hoarded. Not to mention this is most likely intentional conflation of concepts on your behalf. The poor, who don't make enough to pay some Federal taxes, still pay other taxes, particularly state taxes and sales taxes. And, they spend a larger percentage of their earnings on said taxes than those with more. It's mathematics.
Show your work please.
I'm adding the whole "pick and choose winners" thing you repeat on the list of things like "Liberalism" and "causation" that you don't seem to understand.
To whom?
I'll take stability over ideology.
It's inherently anti-capitalistic and anti-free enterprise. So, you're putting your weight behind a system that supports anti-capitalistic protectionism?
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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FreeEnterprise
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 10:35am |
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and again, the poor don't have to pay the tax under Cains plan... You really should read it...
Actually, we don't have a "free enterprise" system. As I have told you many, many times in the past, China manipulates their currency, and floods America with low priced products, through corrupt government interaction to the trade system by changing the "cost" of products to a point that they lose money on every purchase... But, the people can't do anything about it as they aren't in charge, they just live in a poor standard of living country in little tiny houses and deal with it...
So the free enterprise system would still be in place, in this system, you would just have to pay more if you purchase capital investments from out of the country, where currency manipulations are common.
Today, paper is coming into the US market that is forcing US paper manufacturers out of business. They price the paper MUCH lower than they can manufacture it in the states, and what does that do? Well, the paper mills in the US close down. Now you are welcome too research this phenomenon, but I can tell you as I see the US paper mill lists shrink every year, that hundreds of thousands of jobs have been lost to this manipulation of currency that other countries do with regularity. It is the main reason there is such a trade imbalance right now with China, and other asian countries. In case you hadn't noticed, China is communist. The businesses are TOLD what they can and can't do by the government, who also subsidizes the industries to get a larger share of worldwide demand.
Now liberals want to do the same thing (example all the "green" stimulus money spent) except they aren't in control of everything in the US, so the massive money that it would take to do this successfully isn't available to them, and China just beats them at their own game... And it fails, and the US loses Billions.
We aren't a communist country with one ruler who makes all the rules... (even though Øbama has tried to bypass congress on countless things). So all of these green businesses will be in trouble unless he can raise the cost of our energy to make their business models successful... Ahh, the EPA forcing coal plants to shut down, now makes more sense, huh... (without the approval of congress...)
Guess, what, that hurts all other business as he is now finding out, as they can't compete in their businesses with all of these manipulations to OUR free enterprise system. It is destroying it from within.
As to the show your work comment. Look at Solyndra and the way they got their loan, then got it reworked so that the democratic supporters were "protected" when it was clear it was going to fail... look at sunpower, look at the attacks on Gibson, look at GE not paying taxes and the president being on Øbama's "jobs" panel, look at the new ABC report on the latest "green" scam with the cars being made in FINLAND, look at the unions who were GIVEN stock in the new GM company, and Chrysler... All examples of Chrony capitalism and products of the "special rights for his friends, while penalizing his enemies" of the Obama administration. Edited by FreeEnterprise - 21 October 2011 at 10:40am |
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 10:48am |
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So all products sold in the U.S., not made in the U.S., are from China?
 So it'd be a free enterprise system except where it wouldn't be?
That's capitalism. You have to take the good with the bad.
China is a communist country, in that it has a communist federal government structure. Their economy is rather capitalistic, especially as of late. |
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"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists. |
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DaveEllis
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 12:16pm |
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FreeEnterprise
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 12:47pm |
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They tremble at my name...
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evillepaintball
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Posted: 21 October 2011 at 12:57pm |
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We're measuring forests per capita now? Surely there is a better way, like, I dunno, maybe a unit of area?
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