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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 1:36pm

You say that there is a "new" democratic party, and yet... which party advocates abortion?

 
There is no question about that, it is the democrats. 
 
Which party promotes "values" that actually tear down the family unit?
 
Again, no question, democrats. They are the party of welfare (Obama is doing the best job EVER at getting people on welfare roles, as he is the welfare president), the party of "everyone deserves the rights of home ownership" (Barney Frank), the party of spend, and spend, and spend, putting the burden not on their voting block, but the producers of the country, and then whining about the producers not paying their fair share....
 
Democrats ran EVERYTHING for years now, and what did we get? No budget, just massive spending, and now they want to keep spending so they can keep their power, and the little guy (that liberals are supposed to care about) gets the shaft. Do you really want me to pull the statistics on unemployment among the poor in todays "Obama" economy?...
 
Course, if they had their way, there would be less of those pesky poor, as they would just abort them on the taxpayers dime.
 
Oh wait, whale said I was wrong about that... And all the left wing media has trumpeted that this wasn't the case... Will they now change their tunes when the facts are out there?...
 
 
and yes, it was the democrats behind it.
 
And planned parenthood is all about abortion, and they get tax dollars, so don't tell me they put "that" money in a different place, as that has been proven false by high ups AT PLANNED PARENTHOOD.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

It is sad how you guys always want to make everything = one specific example... 
 
 


Says the guy that said all thousands of babies in the United States have been murdered because of convenience. Since that is the only reason a woman would ever choose an abortion. 
 
(please provide the proof I said this...)

You tried that whole Democrats = KKK thing. I'm glad you know your history, trying to correlate them today is just a sad attempt. I teach about people like you in class. When we discuss general belief systems, I always have to discuss those out-liers on both ends of the political system. I give examples of things people similiar to you believe as well as things that those on the extreme left believe. The kids get a kick out of conspiracy theories and fear-mongering from both sides.
 
 
Glad to see that you hold your biases as fact, and anyone who disagrees with you should be ridiculed and mocked. Nothing like a teacher that can't keep their biases at the door, and must indoctrinate their students to the "right" way of thinking by mocking other ways... Jon Stewart would be proud.
 
Nothing like a little tolerance in the world from the more enlightened of society.
 
Tell me Dune, when you are ridiculing people with Christian world views, do you label them as "Christian" or just "extremists"?...
 
Do you ever consider that many of the students are just rolling their eyes behind your clearly biased viewpoints, and smiling and nodding in agreement to keep their grades up because they know your bias is so obvious that if they disagreed with you, they realize you probably would give them bad grades, and pick on them in class to brow beat them until they agreed with your tolerant "values"?
 
 
"I teach about people like you in class". What exactly do you mean by that? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 which party advocates abortion?

 

I'd venture to guess that the correction answer to this is "neither." 

I don't believe anyone involved in government - or really anyone in general - advocates in favor of abortion. I do think, however, one party tends to support it as a legalized option more than the others. 

 
Quote Which party promotes "values" that actually tear down the family unit?
 

A strange discussion, to claim that welfare is something that tears down the family unit. But a dodge of topic, none-the-less.  

Quote on the taxpayers dime.
 

False. 
 
The link you provided is an interesting situation, but it's not indicative of Federal tax dollars funding abortions across the U.S. It involves a rather complex situation with the District of Columbia not actually being a state, and not having the same governmental structure as the rest of the country. They've been audited many times before, and while those audits have shown problems in medicaid/medicare billing (Which should be investigated like any other claim), I've not read anything showing a problem with Federal monies paying for abortions. 

Interesting case, in DC, but not relevant. 

Quote And planned parenthood is all about abortion,

False. 

It is, as you know, about 3% of their total interactions. The vast majority of their customer interactions - about 35% - involve contraceptives. Either distributing free condoms or charging a discounted rate, I think about $11, for basic birth-control pills. 

Quote and they get tax dollars, so don't tell me they put "that" money in a different place, 

That is how allocation of money occurs in almost every instance of everything. 

It's silly to pretend otherwise. 

 




Edited by agentwhale007 - 08 July 2011 at 1:55pm
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donald Blake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

It is sad how you guys always want to make everything = one specific example... Life is about choices, and you can't put everyone into one catagory. Just follow the evidence, and that will point out issues that have moral consequence. It doesn't mean EVERY example will follow that narrow path, but that also doesn't mean that NONE of the examples are inaccurate.


Hey, look - a cogent, intelligent, nuanced argument by FE.
 
Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

There is plenty of evidence that there are women being coerced into having abortions when they don't want one. Why would someone coerce someone to do that? Well, a likely reason is they believe in Margaret Sangers utiopia of eugenics. Undisputed fact is almost every planned parent"hood" is located in the 'hood'. That is by design.

... etc.


Oh well - I guess it couldn't last.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:00pm
I teach how people who follow one side politics can have a negative impact on the government. I show them extreme views of the left and the right and how the stubborn attitudes of the two sides hurt the American people. I never said anything about Christian values, that's just you pretending to be a victim while up on your cross. It must be lonely up there. Each religion gets the same time and detail in my class, as it is important to explain their patterns, how they have spread across space and time, and their core values. In addition, I also teach Darwin and his beliefs as an idea and how it has spread and developed.
 
Edit: My theory on teaching is that it is very important for students to make up their own minds about issues. You can't downplay one issue over another, or religion. Objectivity is the key, and it is the job of the teacher to leave their subjectivity out of it. 

For you to insinuate that I bully my kids with the threat of grades to get them to follow my views is beyond pathetic and serves more of an example as to how disrespect for our educational system is contagious and is very harmful to our future population.


Edited by Dune - 08 July 2011 at 2:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

It's pretty incredible just how much FE hates the democratic party. 


What's incredible is how this turned into an abortion thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

It's pretty incredible just how much FE hates the democratic party. 


What's incredible is how this turned into an abortion thread.

That's the most disappointing part. 

The original topic, while presented with a healthy dose of hyperbole, is rather interesting. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ceesman762 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:07pm
And no one seen FE changing a thread to something about religion, morals, abortion, democrats, republicans, left, right, Jesus, The Pope, legos, ponies, or Obama?
Innocence proves nothing
FUAC!!!!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donald Blake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

 

The vast majority of their customer interactions - about 35%



Umm...   :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 which party advocates abortion?

 

I'd venture to guess that the correction answer to this is "neither." 

I don't believe anyone involved in government - or really anyone in general - advocates in favor of abortion. I do think, however, one party tends to support it as a legalized option more than the others. 

 
Now you are just being silly. Democrats are pro choice, republicans are by and large pro life. It isn't even close.
 
Quote Which party promotes "values" that actually tear down the family unit?
 

A strange discussion, to claim that welfare is something that tears down the family unit. But a dodge of topic, none-the-less.  
 
democrats promote welfare, abortion, no school choice, and class warfare. While breaking down the family unit through paying women MORE money if they don't have a man around. That breaks down the family unit. You love stats, look at the stats of single moms in poor parts of the country prior to 1973, vs today. You will see a massive increase in single moms, as our morals have declined as a society.

Quote on the taxpayers dime.
 

False. 
 
The link you provided is an interesting situation, but it's not indicative of Federal tax dollars funding abortions across the U.S. It involves a rather complex situation with the District of Columbia not actually being a state, and not having the same governmental structure as the rest of the country. They've been audited many times before, and while those audits have shown problems in medicaid/medicare billing (Which should be investigated like any other claim), I've not read anything showing a problem with Federal monies paying for abortions. 
 
Federal moneys  paid for those abortions. MY TAX DOLLARS (maybe they put my tax dollars into something else, AMIRITE???).
 
Even when I provide PROOF of what I am saying, you still don't believe it...

Interesting case, in DC, but not relevant. 

Quote And planned parenthood is all about abortion,

False. 

It is, as you know, about 3% of their total interactions. The vast majority of their customer interactions - about 35% - involve contraceptives. Either distributing free condoms or charging a discounted rate, I think about $11, for basic birth-control pills. 

Quote and they get tax dollars, so don't tell me they put "that" money in a different place, 

That is how allocation of money occurs in almost every instance of everything. 

It's silly to pretend otherwise. 

 


 
Ahh, the 3% talking point... Here I will prove that wrong, yet again...
 
 
"Yet according to PPFA’s own March 2011 Planned Parenthood Services fact sheet, 332,278 abortions were performed on some of PPFA’s three million clients in the year ending June 30, 2009.  This suggests that eleven percent of their clients had abortions in that year, not three percent. But the best measure of how important abortions are to PPFA’s bottom line is the fact that abortions produce at least 37 percent of PPFA revenues “by very conservative estimates.”[1]

 

PPFA has also expanded these lucrative abortion services, adding surgical or “medical” (RU-486) abortion to the services offered at an additional 75 clinics between 2005 and 2009. In that period, PPFA’s total annual abortions grew 25 percent,[2] while other services declined. For example, prenatal care clients numbered 7,021 in the most recent year (down 60 percent in the last five years),[3] and adoption referrals to other agencies numbered only 977, compared to 4,912 in 2007, (see page 7) a remarkable 80% drop in adoption referrals in only two years.

 

Due to this increase in abortions and decrease in prenatal care and adoption services, 97.6 percent of PPFA “services” for pregnant women in 2009 involved killing their children, and only 2.4 percent involved prenatal care or adoption referral."
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

It's pretty incredible just how much FE hates the democratic party. 


What's incredible is how this turned into an abortion thread.

That's the most disappointing part. 

The original topic, while presented with a healthy dose of hyperbole, is rather interesting. 
 
That was my fault. I should be reported.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donald Blake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

It's pretty incredible just how much FE hates the democratic party. 


What's incredible is how this turned into an abortion thread.


Maybe we can rescue things by turning it into an evolution thread?

Hey FE, do you own any dogs?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by Donald Blake Donald Blake wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

 

The vast majority of their customer interactions - about 35%



Umm...   :)

This was incorrect, upon examination. 

About 35% of their interactions are STD testings. So rubbers and pills are not a majority that could be considered "vast."

Although you were probably smirking because of my use of majority instead of the more specific term of plurality. However, I don't think "majority" is inherently wrong, just not as specific as it could be. Saying that something is  a "plural majority" is probably the most-right there . . .

 . . . you know what, this thread has already ventured into the abortion debate. I'm not going to lead it down the path of being a linguistics debate too. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

I teach how people who follow one side politics can have a negative impact on the government. I show them extreme views of the left and the right and how the stubborn attitudes of the two sides hurt the American people. I never said anything about Christian values, that's just you pretending to be a victim while up on your cross. It must be lonely up there. Each religion gets the same time and detail in my class, as it is important to explain their patterns, how they have spread across space and time, and their core values. In addition, I also teach Darwin and his beliefs as an idea and how it has spread and developed.
 
Edit: My theory on teaching is that it is very important for students to make up their own minds about issues. You can't downplay one issue over another, or religion. Objectivity is the key, and it is the job of the teacher to leave their subjectivity out of it. 

For you to insinuate that I bully my kids with the threat of grades to get them to follow my views is beyond pathetic and serves more of an example as to how disrespect for our educational system is contagious and is very harmful to our future population.
Nice dodge, but you didn't answer my question...
 
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
"I teach about people like you in class". What exactly do you mean by that? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


Now you are just being silly. Democrats are pro choice, republicans are by and large pro life. It isn't even close.
 

That is, of course, the point I was making. 

"Pro-choice," is exactly that. It is for the ability to make the choice of abortion. It's not support or enjoyment or even advocacy of the procedure itself - it's simply the push to maintain it as a legalized option. 
 
You originally asked which party "advocates abortion." The answer is neither. One tends to advocate the choice of abortion, though. 

Quote Even when I provide PROOF of what I am saying, you still don't believe it...
 

Your "proof" was one situation in a particularly interesting setting - A quasi-half-sate that's not run like a state but sort of is. 

I believe, at least looking at what is presented in the article, that the abortions took place. 

I don't believe, however, that this is indicative of the rest of the U.S. Nothing you've posted so far shows that as being the case, unless you rely on extrapolation of DC to the rest of the U.S., which is a geographical fallacy. 

Quote Ahh, the 3% talking point... Here I will prove that wrong, yet again...
 

One, I'm taking things presented by a pro-life and anti-science website with a grain of salt. However, that article suggests that the percentage of interactions involving abortions are somewhere around 11% instead of the previously presented 3%.

Neat, but still doesn't counter-balance your previous claim, which is that Planned Parenthood is "all about abortions." Even putting abortions at 11% of interactions, it's not close to contraception sales and STD testing. 

Also, the article makes the same conflation as other pro-life claims on the subject: It conflates expenses/earnings with total percentage. Yes, Planned Parenthood most likely makes more money from providing abortions than their other interactions. 

When you ignore the intentional conflation, though, it's obvious that a medical procedure is going to cost more than selling discounted birth control pills, or running STD tests. 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 08 July 2011 at 2:25pm
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donald Blake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Ahh, the 3% talking point... Here I will prove that wrong, yet again...
 
 
"Yet according to PPFA’s own March 2011 Planned Parenthood Services fact sheet, 332,278 abortions were performed on some of PPFA’s three million clients in the year ending June 30, 2009.  This suggests that eleven percent of their clients had abortions in that year, not three percent. 
 


Math fail, all across.

PP's statement was that abortions make up roughly 3% of services.  This is consistent with data provided by PP.

Giving Lifenews the benefit of the doubt here, I will say they noticed that "services" is different from "patients," and many/most patients receive more than one "service" - that must be true, since PP had roughly 3MM patients and provided more than 11MM services during the period in question.

So Lifenews is correct in observing that most likely, more than 3% of people that walk through PP's doors have abortions.  They are NOT correct, however, in concluding as they do that 11% of PP's patients have abortions, for that self-same reason:  services are not evenly distributed.  Some patients will have multiple abortions in a year, thereby reducing the number of patients having abortions - which is of course why you measure these things by services in the first place.

So PP's statement is correct when read correctly.  When mashed up and mangled, like Lifenews did, then it looks wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:47pm
The linked article had planned parenthoods actual numbers cited... So it wasn't them making up figures, it was planned parenthoods actual numbers (which many people say are skewed for political purposes anyway by counting a single visit as multiple visits if it ISN'T abortion)...
 
 
Planned parenthood counts every visit for an abortion as 1 visit. So they can skew their numbers as they know that the media will cover their backside.
 
 
 
Here is the latest report from a credible organization that states abortion is the service that 12% of planned parenhood customers receive.
 
 
pg 7.
 
Course, the media holds such control over people that even when shown the proof, they still don't believe...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


Here is the latest report from a credible organization that states abortion is the service that 12% of planned parenhood customers receive.
 

Even if this is true, it still does not support your previous claim of: 

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

planned parenthood is all about abortion, 


How exactly is, even assuming that it is at 12% (Which the Thunder God did a good job of explaining), abortion all about what Planned Parenthood is? 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 08 July 2011 at 2:58pm
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 3:03pm
read the report, and you will see how they are changing their focus because of the money they make from abortion. It is very clear how their focus has dramatically changed over the years.
 
but, please stop repeating the 3% number, as it is a lie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2011 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

 
How exactly is, even assuming that it is at 12% (Which the Thunder God did a good job of explaining), abortion all about what Planned Parenthood is? 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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