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Democratic party throws a hissy fit...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 12:09pm
My wife, mom, sister, dad, grandmother, sister in law, 3 cousins, and uncle are all teachers. As well as countless friends.
 
 
Most of them vote republican... and get frustrated by their union dues being used to promote democrats.
 
Clearly you misunderstood my position. The ones that are actively striking are the ones I have a problem with. And they are the minority. And calling in "sick" when you are striking is clearly breaking their agreement. An agreement that they say can't be broken...
 
To "fix" the budget they either need concessions (which the union doesn't want but will have to accept) or they eliminate 12,000 government employees.
 
Logically the unions would realize how good their benefit packages are compared to the "real world" and make concessions... But, with the collective bargaining agreement, legally they can't. So the agreement needs to go.
 
But, that would be looking at this logically. And clearly this has to be a "us vs them" as usual.


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 21 February 2011 at 1:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 12:11pm
As much as I hate blog posts, this one is for you, FE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


Logically the unions would realize how good their benefit packages are compared to the "real world"

What is the private market equivalent to a public school teacher that is being used as the comparison here?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
 And clearly this has to be a "us vs them" as usual.


You've been beating this drum since day 1.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 12:30pm
Actually, I am for the children getting a good education.
 
Try this on for size. Look up the graduation rate in Wisconsin...
 
Then bust out the graduation rate among blacks in Wisconsin...
 
Absolutely pathetic. Especially when you see what they are paying the teachers who are clearly failing the education needs of the children.
 
 
But, you don't see that on your news cast, huh.
 
Gooo unions. Guess it isn't about getting the best for the kids...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
 And clearly this has to be a "us vs them" as usual.


You've been beating this drum since day 1.

He's not wrong. It is an "us vs. them." 

I don't believe for a second that this argument, that the motions in Wisconsin have anything to do with teachers, with education, with Republican vs. Democrat, with pubic vs. private sector, or with budgets and deficits. 

Sure, those points exist in the conversation, but it's not the underlying current. 

This is "us vs. them" in the sense of it being those who believe labor has the right to assemble and collectively bargain vs. those who believe that doing so is inherently wrong, and workers, both public and private, aught to take what they are offered or hit the road. 

Thus is the reason why you don't just see teachers assembling in Madison. Instead, police and fire fighter unions have joined, as well as other private-sector unions. You have the Professional Firefighters of Wisconsin saying they'll take a pay cut to save collective bargaining rights.

And, on the other side, it's why you have the Koch brothers donating heavily to Governor Walker.

This isn't about teachers or a budget problem. This is a union bust, I do believe. 

*EDIT* Blasted work computer. 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 21 February 2011 at 12:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 12:44pm

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2011/48_back_gop_governor_in_wisconsin_spat_38_side_with_unions

well, well, well...
 
 
"Character and morality" on display...
 
 
Verrrry classy.
 
 
 
American Thinker has some great articles about this topic right now.
 
 
"The Democratic Party has sold its soul to the public sector unions.  In the 2010 mid-term election, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees poured over $87 million dollars into the election. (A new spending record).   AFSCME's $87 million was greater than the campaign spending by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce ($75 million) and American Crossroads ($65 million).  Other public sector unions also ratcheted up their spending such as SEIU ($44 million) and the National Education Association ($40 million).
The three major public sector unions spent over $171 million in the 2010 election plus an estimated $250 million equivalent value of so-called volunteer activity such as get out the vote efforts, door-to-door campaigning and poll watching."
 
 
"Had voters limited their ballots to throwing out the rascals in Congress, a fair argument could be made that 2010 was just a protest vote -- an attempt by voters to shake up the Democrats.  But when voters drill down to change party control of legislatures, city halls, and county commissions, you can bet that they're thoroughly repudiating the party in power.  The 2010 repudiation of Democrats was a clear expression of what voters did and didn't want from government."
 
 
 
"One of the motivations for President Obama to insert himself in this dispute is the simple matter that unions bankroll Democrat candidates and Mr. Obama has already said that he plans on raising $1 billion for his re-election effort in 2012.  The website Opensecrets.org lists the top campaign contributors for the period 1989-2010.  The aggregate political contribution by unions to Democrats during this period was a total of $480,000,000.  That's nearly half a BILLION dollars.  As the old saying goes, he who pays the piper, calls the tune.  For a half a billion dollars, the unions should expect a full blown symphony."
 
 
 
 
saving the best for last...
 
 
"And the real issue is whether public sector unions should even be allowed to exist.  Frankly, when even a modicum of common sense is infused into the equation, the answer is a resounding no.  And the foundational reason is simple.  There is no one at the bargaining table representing the folks who are actually going to pay whatever is negotiated.
Gee, what could possibly go wrong? 

Well let's see what went wrong: California, New Jersey, Illinois, Michigan, Chicago, New York State, New York City, Wisconsin...on and on I could go including almost every city and state where government workers are unionized.

Oh, and have you seen pictures of Detroit lately?

The problem is that our country has been lulled to sleep over decades of hearing that government workers are dedicated and low paid public servants who trade good pay for security.  And every time a union pay debate came up, it seemed like only cops and fire fighters and teachers were mentioned.  No one stopped to think that most government workers are actually bureaucratic charmers like those we see at the DMV and other government offices -- and not "heroic teachers" or crime fighters.

But as long as the private sector was humming along, there was no reason for reality to permeate that myth in most peoples' minds.  But the reality is that government workers long ago passed private sector workers in pay and benefits, and now the compensation is more like 150% or even double, factoring in all the benefits, including more vacation days than private sector workers enjoy.  And of course, the inestimable value of job security remains intact and strengthened -- while all of us in the private sector deal daily with the risk-reward constraints of reality that are only getting riskier.

And along the way -- with a public school teacher-educated population that understands virtually nothing about economics -- the sheer idiocy of the concept of government unions escaped almost everybody.  It's almost as if the union teachers were lying to their students about economics on purpose."


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 21 February 2011 at 1:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 2:22pm
Once again, you think that just because they are protesting or against the bill, they are automatically Democrats. The Republican teachers at my school would be at the courthouse in a heartbeat right next to the Dems if it came down to capping salary and all other wonderful "cost-saving" measures. 

EDIT: If your teacher friends don't like where their union dues are going, tell them to not be in the union. 


Edited by Dune - 21 February 2011 at 2:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

"Character and morality" on display...
 
 
 
 
 
Quote  California, New Jersey, Illinois, Michigan, Chicago, New York State, New York City, Wisconsin...

And how do those states as a whole rank in quality of schools and public education versus states where teachers are not allowed to collectively bargain, like the Carolinas, Georgia and Texas? 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

"Character and morality" on display...
 
 
 

 
 
 
Crooks and liars is your source to discredit the many pictures and video proof of this "sick note" controversy...
 
I thought you wanted to be a journalist?... At least check the source... They have an "exclusive" on the way they manipulated everyone with this entire story... lol.
 
bigjournalism.com
 
Plus news stories (I know, what am I doing looking at actual NEWS reports anyway...) say that there will end up being ethics investigations into the doctors doing this as clearly it is illegal.
 


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 21 February 2011 at 3:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 there will end up being ethics investigations into the doctors doing this
 

Rightfully so. 

To swell it up as to make it sound like there were hundreds of doctors passing out thousands of notes is hilarious though. That's what the link is pointing out. That, and the guy quoted as receiving notes from the hoard of "doctors" works for Breitbart and is about as credible.  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 3:35pm
Also, this challenge:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


Crooks and liars is your source to discredit the many pictures and video proof of this "sick note" controversy...
  
In the same thread as this:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 American Thinker has some great articles about this topic right now.

Makes me do this = LOL

I needed this kind of uplifting humor today, I was having a bad day. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 3:36pm

If it were less than 5 people doing this I could see your point. Problem is there were lots. I saw over 10 different people doing it in pics and video, and I didn't watch all of the video's out there...

 
Believe what you want... 
 
Some are more willing to take a leap than others.  
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

If it were less than 5 people doing this I could see your point. Problem is there were lots. I saw over 10 different people doing it in pics and video, and I didn't watch all of the video's out there...


I also read plans on conservative sites yesterday afternoon to infiltrate the protests and make the union supporters look bad. Not that I believe that it would be done at all on a mass scale.

But those kinds of posts (Which got taken down after Kos linked to them) combined with Breitbart's reputation for manipulation and distortion, makes me suspicious of hoards of doctors handing out sick notes. Especially when it comes to light that one of the people quoted as getting a faux-note works for Breitbart. 

Has there been video evidence of at least one guy doing it? Yeah. And that guy is completely in the wrong. Same with the people using target imagery and Hitler on their signs. Poor form. But it's not the majority. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 4:10pm
not the majority...
 
 
 
 
ummm....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

not the majority...

ummm....

In that video, two women pull a Godwin and mention that Hitler also busted labor unions. 

I didn't see any violent imagery or violent talk from anyone else in the clip, either interviewed or in the B-roll.

I mean, I'm no math whiz, so maybe you can explain to me how two people summoning Godwin, and from earlier in the thread, one Hitler sign, and one gun target sign, equals the majority? Because it seems like there are a lot of people there.

It would be appreciated. 

Thanks! 

LOL


Edited by agentwhale007 - 21 February 2011 at 4:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 5:27pm
One more before I hole myself up in the library for the next few hours using SPSS. 

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


Logically the unions would realize how good their benefit packages are compared to the "real world" and make concessions...

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 when you figure in the huge amount of "freebies" they get that the private sector 

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


Private sector is losing the pay and benifit battles, but public employees are to be exempt because they are GOVERNMENT employees, and so special under this administration. 


That's with benefits included. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2011 at 8:09am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

not the majority...

ummm....

In that video, two women pull a Godwin and mention that Hitler also busted labor unions. 

I didn't see any violent imagery or violent talk from anyone else in the clip, either interviewed or in the B-roll.

I mean, I'm no math whiz, so maybe you can explain to me how two people summoning Godwin, and from earlier in the thread, one Hitler sign, and one gun target sign, equals the majority? Because it seems like there are a lot of people there.

It would be appreciated. 

Thanks! 

LOL
 
 
Wow, the hypocrisy with that request is so thick you could cut it with a knife.
 
When the tea party was holding rally's that the media largely ignored (unless they found ONE example that they could then label THE ENTIRE group with...) That was OK, but don't even THINK about doing it with this group when there were over 10 doctors signing sick notes. (I posted pictures and video showing more than the 1 you acknowledged).
 
 
This from the guy who said and I quote

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Also. My honest thoughts on the Tea Party:

The Tea Party slithered out of the afterbirth of Republican whining after Obama was elected. It's an astroturfed movement created by the wealthy who are terrified that the big bad Democrat might lower their profit margins by .05 percent through his policies. So they got the Republicans to kick the hive and move as far-right as possible, using every weapon they posses along the way - Fox News, lies, etc. 

Now they have hoards of supporters who don't know any better than to repeat what the loud voices have told them - Health care reform is bad! Obama is turning this nation into dependent socialists! Taxation is out of control! - even though the things they are blindly supporting hurt them. It's like Stockholm Syndrome. The wealthy that created the faux-outrage don't care about them. 

And now, it's snowballed into a force that the Republicans cannot control. And true fiscal Republicans - the Tallens and Rebs of the world - cannot associate with them. The wealthy got step one of what they wanted to get out of it. 

So, I guess in that category, the party has been a success. It's just ironic to me that the average support of the Tea Party has no idea how that actually sets them back. 

/In before OMG YOU JOURNALIST!. 
 
 
 
 
See you fail over and over, and don't even realize it.
 
Read my tea party sign.
 
 
 
So clearly I was asking for no NEW taxes. And based on the massive amount of WASTE that the democratic controlled legislature in Wisconsin who then "collectively" bargained these incredible union contracts... Which gave them virtually FREE healthcare and FREE retirement... While the unions were getting the democrats hired...
 
Who exactly was representing the people that actually PAY for these benefits?
 
You know, the taxpayer?
 
Sounds like unions using their elected officials to collude together and produce an unsustainable "deal". With the taxpayers paying the bill... How is that "fair"?...
 
Now that the people that pay (taxpayers) realized this, they got rid of the democrats and put in republicans to try and fix the mess.
 
IT takes 15 months to get a agreement with the unions. That is a known fact.
 
They don't have 15 months to "negotiate". THEY ARE BROKE. When the democrats ran EVERYTHING last year, they couldn't even get an agreement with the unions... And they were both on the same side...
 
Clearly they are unreasonable.
 
Just like Obama with his MASSIVE budget, that KEEPS spending money we DON'T have... Over 3 trillion in 2 years so far...
 
but, what do I know, I'm just a tax payer, and non union member, who's grandfather was the president of the local UAW back in the 80's and quit after one term after witnessing the corruption and fraud, and thuggery of the UAW. Once he saw the underbelly of the beast he never voted democrat again in his life. And often told of what he witnessed by the "big union bosses" and their counterparts the Democrats in office.


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 22 February 2011 at 8:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2011 at 8:43am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

See you fail over and over, and don't even realize it.

Because I said that the large majority of Tea Party supporters were duped? 

I fail to see what that has to do with thinking the majority of the Wisconsin protestors 1) Are using violent imagery, and 2) Invoking the name of Hitler. Because that is what we are discussing here. I don't believe the majority of the Tea Party supporters were outwardly professing racism either, nor were they marching because of racism. 

You can think they're all duped if you want. That's perfectly fine. That's not what we're discussing, though. 

Please, try and keep up. 
 
Quote Who exactly was representing the people that actually PAY for these benefits?

See, the way contracts work, the way collective bargaining works, is that someone, usually someone appointed by an elected official or the official themselves, has to sign off on the contract. It has to be approved. 

That's how contracts work. You elect someone who can choose to agree to union requests or not. 
 
Quote Now that the people that pay (taxpayers)

I was unaware that those working in a public union didn't pay taxes. 
 
Quote IT takes 15 months to get a agreement with the unions. That is a known fact.

And? Is that not a right of a group of people joining together? There is a demand for their services, why do they not have the right to negotiate it? 

For someone who cloaks themselves in a flag of capitalism, you sure seem not to like supply and demand.  
 
Quote They don't have 15 months to "negotiate". THEY ARE BROKE.
 

Yes they are SO BROKE that they are giving away state assets and massive tax breaks to WalMart.

Nothing says fiscal responsibility like decreasing revenue. LOL


Quote When the democrats ran EVERYTHING last year,
 

 




Edited by agentwhale007 - 22 February 2011 at 8:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2011 at 9:18am
Clearly you are missing my point.
 
The unions have a contract that they negotiated with their friends the democrats. This contract was based on business being able to absorb their massive entitlement programs so they could "hide" their true income...
 
Less taxes as health insurance, and retirement aren't taxed as income when manipulated in this way. So don't play the "they pay taxes too" card. As they are gaming the system, with the help of the democratic party.
 
In business when a union negotiates, you have the owner of the business on one side, (you know the guy that is actually PAYING for the new deal) and the union on the other.
 
Where is the tax payer when the Democrats (who are elected by unions) sit at one side of the table across from THEIR SUPPORTERS the unions.
 
Clearly anyone can see the massive conflict of interest. And the reason collective bargaining shouldn't exist in GOVERNMENT.
 
As unions have realized they can pay themselves more by their votes for government... Then working for said government and getting sweet heart deals from their own elected chronies. 
 
Look at the money going to democrats from the unions... It is perfectly clear that this is what is going on.
 
 
We all realize that you are a big progressive. At your age it is understandable, as you haven't tried to run your own business yet, or payed taxes yet, or watched as corruption like doctors giving "sick" notes to teachers WHO AREN'T ALLOWED TO STRIKE, while they strike.
 
This whole thing is about a contract that the teachers say can't be broken, as they are getting such a sweet deal that is unsustainable... They have lost too much tax revenue in their state by losing business... Now they can't afford to wait 15 months while they negotiate a contract THAT THE UNIONS HAVE JUST BROKEN BY STRIKING.
 
Why you can't see that massive issue is astounding?... They broke the contract by striking. Period. Contract is now null and void if this were the real world...
 
Calling in "sick" for days at a time and shutting down the schools is a strike by definition.
 
Interesting tidbit, the union members who are now striking (wait, calling in "sick") have received almost $3,000,000 in wages since they started striking.... Paid for by the sucker tax payers as usual.
 
This whole thing stinks. And typical of the progressive movement... Of which you are clearly a fan.


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 22 February 2011 at 9:20am
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