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Democratic party throws a hissy fit...

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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2011 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by scotchyscotch scotchyscotch wrote:

More tax = more money to pay teachers. 
More money= better people will become teachers as it's worth the while.
better people=better results
better results= more money for students (graduates)
more money for graduates= more money they will spend on milk, bread and cristal.
= more money for everyone else.

I may be inebriated but, problem?
 
The problem lies in how much of the tax money goes to teachers. I don't think any of us would have a problem with higher taxes if we reaped the benefits of them, but rarely is that the case.
 
Of course,  I have no problem with higher pay to teachers, but let's tighten up on some of our looser areas to pay for it. The government likes to pretend that all of its money is tied up so they need to raise taxes, but I find that very hard to believe. You can't tell me that every state and /or the federal government isn't completely littered with useless spending.
 
Somebody on here posted a link to a movement that's trying to deman itemized receipts given to American taxpayers after they've paid their taxes showing where every penny went. I support that wholeheartedly. So to abridge your statement a bit-
 
Originally posted by scotchyscotch scotchyscotch wrote:

More tax = More money dispersed to needless spending.
More money to needless spending = teachers see very little.
Teachers see very little = unions tighten down,
Unions tighten down = Here we go again
 
Like I said, I support the teacher's unions, because teachers deserve every penny of the pay they get, on top of the fact they're the first in line to get screwed when screwing times come around. And I'd glady pay a couple hundred bucks extra a year in taxes to see a mass restructuring of our educational and health systems, but it's not going to happen. As I think we'll prove with the healthcare bill, tax money gets dispersed in all kinds of ways leaving very little to the actual causes they were intended to support. That's why there's such a huge NO MORE TAXES movement in this country, because when some people have sat down and done the math, the money doesn't add up. You just can't trust the government with money in the condition it's in right now, until we get a movement for more fiscal responsibility. I can't fault the uber right wingers in this area.


Edited by stratoaxe - 18 February 2011 at 11:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2011 at 12:20am
I contemplated making a thread about this before it got FE'd, but whatever.  My mom's a teacher in WI and she went to Madison on Thursday.  The biggest problem I have, besides Walker not having a college degree... in fact dropping out while having a C average, is that this bill has an effect on all state employees EXCEPT for police and fire.  

Know why?

the police and fire unions supported and backed Walker in the election.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2011 at 7:55am
Unions HAD a purpose at one time. Now they are just a corrupt bunch of leaders who want thier 'suitcase' every month and donate millions to friendly political (see Democrat) hacks. The rank and file are only relevant during negotiations where dues are to be increased. What if the millions the unions take in dues and give to polititians is put into rank and file benifit programs? Only then will polititians (see Democrats) also feel the pinch as the 'support' wains. Why are these donations only based on the leaders whims, not the co-operation of all union members. The studies are that Democrats recieve the bulk of 'donations' yet the Republican rank and file can not voice thier opinion on these donations.

How much more are the private sector to be taxed in order to continue these 'cadillac' benifits programs for unions across the board. Why is bussiness forced to search for cheaper and cheaper labor. Of course a teacher who has to pay taxes as well as union dues feels he/she deserves more.

From public sector UAW/AFL-CIO union types pricing American workers out of the manufacturing industry (who is willing to pay for a $400 union made I-Pod)or the auto industry who have needed bailouts due to ever higher labor costs, and still try and market vehicles that the American public do not want.

The day you relize that the taxes you pay go into a hole that only dolls out to the prefered programs will you realize the problem.

Here in Nebraska school sports and band etc are still funded by school taxes, parents are not required to buy equipment, uniforms and instruments, why because comman sense fiscal practices, and teachers are on par with private sector in pay and benifits, not golden parachute union demanded budget breaking programs.

Private sector is losing the pay and benifit battles, but public employees are to be exempt because they are GOVERNMENT employees, and so special under this administration.

It is not UNION BUSTING to ask for some form of fiscal responsibility from the rank and file as well as the UNION LEADERS and Democrat polititians who seem to reep the vast amount of rewards from dues, not the rank and file.

And when is $100K a year so bad for a teachers salary and benifits?
http://maciverinstitute.com/2010/03/average-mps-teacher-compensation-tops-100kyear/
so that teachers are not well paid FAILS in this Wisconsin arguement.
How many of you who support this 'protest' make $100K in pay and benifits?

Edited by oldsoldier - 19 February 2011 at 8:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2011 at 10:50am
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


And when is $100K a year so bad for a teachers salary and benifits?

I'd be interested to see how that calculation is being made in that article/video by the speaker. It says that average pay is $56,000, but then says that fringe benefits will be $100,000. What is a fringe benefit for a teacher? 


"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2011 at 11:46am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


And when is $100K a year so bad for a teachers salary and benifits?

I'd be interested to see how that calculation is being made in that article/video by the speaker. It says that average pay is $56,000, but then says that fringe benefits will be $100,000. What is a fringe benefit for a teacher? 


 
I was hoping someone would bring that up.
 
44K is ALOT of fringe benefits, and I'd love to know what qualifies as "fringe".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2011 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:


 
I don't much about this story, but I do know that here in Texas teacher pay is PATHETIC, and as such we have one of the worst education rates in the union, if not the worst.  

I don't think you can blame that solely on teacher's pay.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2011 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:


 
I don't much about this story, but I do know that here in Texas teacher pay is PATHETIC, and as such we have one of the worst education rates in the union, if not the worst.  

I don't think you can blame that solely on teacher's pay.
 
Not solely, but the quality of education in Texas is terrible, and I think the level of teacher pay has alot to do with it, among the usual socioeconomic factors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2011 at 4:38pm
Let's see, as a benifit the pay-in from taxpayers (employer) for their retirement is far outweighed by the employee contribution of @5%-7% where private sector nears 15%-20%, medical employee payin at approximately 7% where private sector averages again near 20%. It does not take much anymore to see between retirement and medical an annual package for teachers in this case near $100K.

Do your own math and calculate what your total package is worth and it will surprise you.

Teachers need to againbe tested on their performance in order to see how the potential lack of ability to teach contributes to the god awefull numbers of graduates and abilities of the students. The UNION protects the ineffective at the cost of the reputation of the effective teachers, so the perception is that teachers on a whole are lacking in ability. And unfortuanately perception is seen more and more as truth in todays media circus. So UNIONS are creating and feeding the monster, and perpetuating the perception.

And as other nations surpass the US in core hard subjects, the US is content teaching (wasting time) on all the social experimentation subjects as India, China, Europe teach advanced math, science and language skills.
Again hand you local teenaged McDonalds employee/high school student amounts off of the standard amount and watch the fun begin, and the baffled look, or in general conversation ask your typical high school student to name the 8 planets in our solar system, or who the vice president is. Another comical exercise.

BTW most of the students dragged by the teachers to the Wisconsin protests have no clue why or what the actual issue is, just padding the numbers.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2011 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

And as other nations surpass the US in core hard subjects, the US is content teaching (wasting time) on all the social experimentation subjects as India, China, Europe teach advanced math, science and language skills. 
 
What is a social experimentation subject? I'm curious as to what this entails.
 
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Again hand you local teenaged McDonalds employee/high school student amounts off of the standard amount and watch the fun begin, and the baffled look, or in general conversation ask your typical high school student to name the 8 planets in our solar system, or who the vice president is. Another comical exercise. 
 
I might stutter on the 8 planets of our solar system, but I can guarantee that there are subjects such as philosophy or politics that I'd mentally throw down on right now. I fail to see how that's a reflection on the educational system.
 
Our country is plagued by the willfully ignorant, and if a senior in high school fails the vice president test (and I know very, very few who would) they're simply dumb. You could sit them in Harvard on a full scholarship with the finest professors money can buy and watch them scratch their ass and hum the Captain Planet theme song. But I also know several juniors that might give you a run for your money on political subjects.
 
The system is broken, no doubt, but I fail to see how cutting pay and benefits to teachers will fix that. Restructure the system? Sure. But griping because teachers are averaging 100K a year (actually 56K, but who needs proper terminology?) is ludicrous. There's a reason that site isn't linked to Drudge anymore.
 
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

BTW most of the students dragged by the teachers to the Wisconsin protests have no clue why or what the actual issue is, just padding the numbers.
 
I'd love to see a reliable statistic for this. I'd like to think that many of those students are, in reality, high.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2011 at 8:50pm
My big question is if Texas is hiring. Right now my local district is not replacing teachers who've retired. Teacher pay is OK in this state, but the job market isn't too great. Our district switched 7th and 8th grade to "junior high" instead of middle school so they can share staff and save money in the future.

Benefits are a major reason I want to get into teaching, since it does help make up for the relatively low pay for a job requiring a Master's.  Striking is one thing, but just calling out to shut down the school seems like an odd tactic if they're concerned about benefits getting cut. My uncle had enough roll-over sicks days and personal days banked to call out for the last year of teaching before he retired.

I'd like a better idea of how exactly you(OS) or anyone plan on testing teacher performance. Basing it on student performance would seem to tend to drive teachers out of crappy districts in a hurry, and give parents an excuse for lack of involvement. As for students being high, I'd say it's a big problem based on my thus-far limited teaching experience.

Since I'm not working full-time yet I hesitate to form any fixed opinion on the teacher's union. So far I'm a little bummed that I'll have to pay $700 a year to the union whether or not I decide to join knowing that a new hire would be first out in a layoff situation, and also annoyed that our test results in our subject area and language and literacy skills testing are not released since they could impact hiring decisions. I'd really like a leg-up over prospective teacher who took 5 or 6 tries to pass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2011 at 1:39pm
I read a description of people this afternoon that made me think of certain parties on this forum.

"Conditioned to be reflexively partisan"




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2011 at 11:12pm
Unfortunately Walker's ideas are spreading and Ohio's governor is attempting to "break the backs of the unions." (His words) As a teacher, the potential danger for bills like this scare me. Not for my pension or benefits, but for what will happen to the educational system when a salary cap is placed on Ohio teachers. No one will want to teach. It's the passion and desire that makes a good teacher, but when you have to hold down two other jobs just to keep above the poverty line, no thanks. At least in Ohio, our governor is confusing capitalism with socialism. 


EDIT: Looking at the thread title, FE thinks that every teacher protesting is a Democrat. Step into my school and you'll see the many many Republicans that voted for our governor that would now do anything to take it back. This is not a party line.


Edited by Dune - 20 February 2011 at 11:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 12:45am
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:


Unfortunately Walker's ideas are spreading and Ohio's governor is attempting to "break the backs of the unions." (His words) As a teacher, the potential danger for bills like this scare me. Not for my pension or benefits, but for what will happen to the educational system when a salary cap is placed on Ohio teachers. No one will want to teach. It's the passion and desire that makes a good teacher, but when you have to hold down two other jobs just to keep above the poverty line, no thanks. At least in Ohio, our governor is confusing capitalism with socialism. 
EDIT: Looking at the thread title, FE thinks that every teacher protesting is a Democrat. Step into my school and you'll see the many many Republicans that voted for our governor that would now do anything to take it back. This is not a party line.



I was completely shocked to learn that every male teacher I've had in college was very middle of the road conservative. In fact, my government teacher did whole lectures on how Bush was wrongly judged in his time by partisan slander from the opposing party. Good teachers teach critical reasoning and objective thought, and partisans HATE independent thinker, because they can't make the "reflexively partisan" (thanks Reb, I'm completely jacking that )

The idea that teachers are predominately liberal is so outdated it's not even funny.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stealth* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 1:06am
My Profs were always very deliberate in hiding any personal political affiliations... If politics were discussed, they usually supported and criticized both sides of the fence equally. 
WHO says eating pork is safe, but Mexicans have even cut back on their beloved greasy pork tacos. - MSNBC on the Swine Flu
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 9:42am
Found this on the Internet yesterday: 

"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 9:56am
Originally posted by *Stealth* *Stealth* wrote:

My Profs were always very deliberate in hiding any personal political affiliations... If politics were discussed, they usually supported and criticized both sides of the fence equally. 

A good teacher knows when it's appropriate to give personal opinions. They should hide their political beliefs and be a devils advocate in most discussions. It's about showing the issue from all sides. There are instances in which I will tell my students my belief about something, if asked. However, there are plenty of questions I have turned away from because I do not wish to cloud the judgement of my students with my personal beliefs that I have picked up from my own personal experiences. 

My students want to talk about Ohio's Senate Bill 5 much more than I do. They are bright and understand the need for good teachers as well as the possible implications to the police/fire departments in Ohio.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 11:28am
Lets get some facts on the thread... Since it is now full of democratic "talking points"... AKA lies.
 
First off, there are 314 fire and police unions in the state. Of which 4 endorsed the governor.
 
No where near "all". That is a complete lie, and current talking point by the left.
 
There are 300,000 state and local government employees in Wisconsin. It is illegal to strike so they are doing what democrats do and "calling in sick"... Typical unethical behavior, while their democratic legislature runs across state lines to delay the inevitable.
 
They have a $3.6 billion budget deficit, and a group of government employees that make on average $100,000 a year when you figure in the huge amount of "freebies" they get that the private sector (who is paying for this gravytrain btw) never gets.
 
The collective bargaining is the issue, and it needs to be stopped as it is a runaway government entitlement spending spree that never ends.
 
But, the electorate spoke, and I used to think elections mattered... Clearly many don't feel that way. When Obama won and forced through all his junk, he reminded the world often "I won". Well, clearly when  the shoe is on the other foot... What do we see?
 
Lies, deception, running from their elected duties, and threats.
 
The democratic party is exposed for their lack of character.
 
Shocking... oh wait.
 
And since the media is again covering for their "side". Let us look at some of the pictures from the strike "sick" rally.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
It is time for everyone to pay their own way. If you want retirement, you need to pay for it. If you want healthcare... Then don't expect others to pay for your all your healthcare. This union gravy train has gone off the tracks.
 
 
If I were the governor I would fire every single government worker that called in "sick". Unless they could prove they were actually sick and not just "striking"...
 
 
Sad to think that many of these people are teachers... What a great show of the new tone of civility...
 
They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 11:39am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


It is time for everyone to pay their own way. If you want retirement, you need to pay for it. If you want healthcare... Then don't expect others to pay for your all your healthcare. 

E Pluribus Unum, indeed. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 11:46am
Your constant trodding on teachers is starting to get under my skin.

Its quite clear of what you think of them.

1. All democrat. Without exception
2. paid too much to do so little
3. not worthy of having an opinion.
4. expendable.
5. so overpaid that demanding more money from them specifically is a great idea. Forget looking elsewhere in the budget, these people are mere babysitters looking to indoctrinate your children to an evil liberal agenda.

You may know a lot of things about a lot of things, but its abundantly clear that what you know about public educators is remarkably thin. Its apparent since you keep painting them as the front line of the democrat agenda.

So you'd 'fire' all these state employees calling in sick huh? Then what? Then your school and public systems are shut down for even longer, and the positions filled with potentially LESS qualified people who could possibly make the entire system even MORE broken, just because you want to make a political point. Who would you fill the empty teaching positions with? More democrats? especially since they're all left-leaning anyway. How long would it take you to find good line-toting right wingers to fit your agenda? In the meantime.....where is your education system going? Congratulations Mr. Governor, you just ruined Wisconsin.
Kudos for thinking that one through.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2011 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:


Its quite clear of what you think of them.

Bolded is one hell of a grand assumption. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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