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Unreasonable search?... Naked body Scan or Groped.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by scotchyscotch scotchyscotch wrote:

.... Profiling muslims will not be an efficient way of doing things. There are a lot of muslims who don't attempt to take bombs onto planes, I suppose they're just decoys. We're all in this together.
Search everyone. It solves the political correctness and it tightens security. Problem?
 
 
And that is the problem...
 
who is attacking America?...  Muslim extremists.
 
who are we searching with our security? Everyone.
 
Notice the issue... Why check everyone when clearly the threat is from Muslim extremists... It isn't "mean" to search the people that are clearly out to kill you, and not search the non threats.
 
In fact it is logical. Why waste your resources searching young children, when there is no threat from them? Or old women... No old women have blown themselves up killing others...
 
And yet, we pretend that this is making us safer.
 
currently, we have muslim extremists that are typically male... by a large extent. So stop searching old women and children.
 
 
 
 
If I owned a business, and two to three times a year a green person entered yelled about how great his god was and shot up the place.
 
In your world, I would search every single customer...
 
Maybe I could just put in security that looked for the green guys, and searched them.
When clearly the threat was from the green guy...
 
 
Any muslim would understand the problem was from the extreme members of their religion and understand the issue, and added security, as I am sure they wouldn't want to be blown up either...
 
Searching children and old women has only put focus on stupidity of political correctness.

Try being informed instead of just opinionated. How long before you admit that Obama was a mistake?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 1:12pm
I do see what you're saying. But I think that approach would open up massive security gap. Is it possible for a white muslim extremist to attempt an attack? Children are routinely used for suicide bombings.

If this is a constitutional issue then why are the muslim male population not protected?

Basically what I'm saying is it's too great a consequence for one to get through and they could be any colour, any age or gender. Why make assumptions? We can't gamble on the lives of innocent people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 1:31pm
Yeah, and screw the moral high ground.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 1:33pm
How do we determine who is "Muslim" in order to properly search only them? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 2:35pm
FE, you know how you taught your children since they had functioning brains about Jesus, how he was real, their personal savior, then some business about hell, and revived dead guys, etc?

You know how children have this funny little habit of believing most anything their parents ever tell them? They've taught their children their beliefs since they were born, if they knew children didn't get searched because they weren't quite Muslim enough, they'd just hide whatever they wanted to bring onto the plane with the kid. I'm sure not all extremists are single people with no children. Another flaw, since middle eastern looking people (I'm assuming that's what you mean by Muslim) are being targeted by security, they might make it a point to recruit non-middle eastern people for their operation? The biggest flaw, I will get to here in a minute.

Not to mention the fact that what you are proposing is blatant discrimination. The main problem with your theory is a pretty big one though; the fact that the majority of terrorist attacks in the US are not from Muslim extremists, as you claimed. 

On a side-note though: I still don't like the idea of these searches. Honestly, all the various detection methods we have in place right now, what makes them think this is going to work any better?


Edited by __sneaky__ - 09 November 2010 at 2:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 2:43pm
Usually this kind of thread wouldnt affect me much and I would completely agree with the scannings, except that in about two weeks I will be on many flights. Its not that i'm against the scans to prevent terrorists from bombing, but its kind of embarrassing to have to do that in front of everyone in the airport. I know they wont see the screen but it kinda makes you feel naked when you arent so to speak.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

How do we determine who is "Muslim" in order to properly search only them? 

This.

Stand a Bosnian Muslim next to an Indonesian Muslim next to a Lebanese Christian. Who do you think will get picked out of the lineup?

FE, you have utterly ignored your previous vehement affirmation that Muslims ought to be treated equally to all people. Now you're saying that a fifth of the world population ought to be subjected to particularly discriminatory treatment because of a miniscule minority who share an identifiable trait with them.

Which is it? Muslims are equal to all others, or it is justifiable to profile those who one believes are Muslim? You're contradicting yourself. You cannot say that individuals ought to be evaluated based on their own actions and not because of ethnic or racial traits on one hand, and then say that's it's acceptable to segregate and profile the scary Muslims on the other. 

Either Muslims are equal and shall be treated as such, or they are second class citizens subject to arbitrary social control not imposed on others. There's no middle ground. Which is it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Usually this kind of thread wouldnt affect me much and I would completely agree with the scannings, except that in about two weeks I will be on many flights. Its not that i'm against the scans to prevent terrorists from bombing, but its kind of embarrassing to have to do that in front of everyone in the airport. I know they wont see the screen but it kinda makes you feel naked when you arent so to speak.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 3:47pm
Wow, you guys are quick to throw the discrimination flag.
 
I never said to only search muslims... How do you tell which person is a muslim... or a muslim extremist?
 
If someone is murdered, and you have video of the person who did the murder and it is a white guy, do you focus your investigation on Black women?
 
And yet, that is exactly what is going on in airports all over the country now.
 
Can't have discrimination now can we...
 
That would be racial profiling, boo haa, can't do that...
 
Are you guys really that dense?
 
 
The government has a good idea of the typical terrorist. Search those people... I didn't say ethnicity, as muslims could be anyone, but muslim terrorists aren't 80 year old grandmothers, or 4 year old little girls.
 
So to send them through the naked scanner, or grope them for "safety" sake is rediculous, and a complete disreguard for the fourth amendment. You know those papers that used to mean we had rights...
 
Clearly you guys need to read up on Americans rights, as searching everyone with a naked body scanner, or groping them clearly violates the law, as they can't think EVERYONE is a credible threat. This type of thinking is what is wrong with security in our country.
 
 
 
 
Bri, listen, in debate, when a premise is destroyed by facts, that point isn't continued to be fronted as factual...
 
And yet, you continually do that with stuff like this.
 
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Now you're saying that a fifth of the world population ought to be subjected to particularly discriminatory treatment because of a miniscule minority who share an identifiable trait with them.

 
Many people on this forum have pointed out to you that it is not a miniscule minority, but in fact a large segment of the muslim world that finds no problem with destroying America, and Israel.
 
For you to keep repeating this lie, makes all your points seem disingenuous.

Try being informed instead of just opinionated. How long before you admit that Obama was a mistake?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:


Clearly you guys need to read up on Americans rights,
I have.
Quote as searching everyone with a naked body scanner, or groping them clearly violates the law,
No it doesn't
Quote as they can't think EVERYONE is a credible threat. This type of thinking is what is wrong with security in our country.

*Sigh*

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

 muslim terrorists aren't 80 year old grandmothers, or 4 year old little girls.

Then who are they? What is the criteria for search in the FEaper world? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

 
Many people on this forum have pointed out to you that it is not a miniscule minority, but in fact a large segment of the muslim world that finds no problem with destroying America, and Israel.
 
For you to keep repeating this lie, makes all your points seem disingenuous.
Originally posted by FEaper FEaper wrote:

For you to keep repeating this lie, makes all your points seem disingenuous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

 
If someone is murdered, and you have video of the person who did the murder and it is a white guy, do you focus your investigation on Black women?
 
 


No because a white guy already committed the crime....

Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

Wow, you guys are quick to throw the discrimination flag.
 
I never said to only search muslims... How do you tell which person is a muslim... or a muslim extremist?
 
If someone is murdered, and you have video of the person who did the murder and it is a white guy, do you focus your investigation on Black women?
 
And yet, that is exactly what is going on in airports all over the country now.

Except that you're saying 'Hey, that white guy might murder someone because other white people have committed murders!' Your claim is premised on an assumption that because people who are Muslim have committed crimes, all Muslims must therefore be suspect to a greater degree than others to such a degree as to convey statistical significance.

Let's look at this again though, because it's amusing: You say "I never said look only at Muslims". That is NOT the same as saying "I did not say treat Muslims differently". I read this as you would have everyone looked at, but Muslims would get to be somehow more special yet. You then immediately say "If a white guy committed a murder would you not look for a white guy?" which can only be read as justifying targeting security effors based on a specific identifiable trait.
 
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

Can't have discrimination now can we...
 
That would be racial profiling, boo haa, can't do that...

Discrimination and equality cannot coexist. You yourself stated that Muslims are equal. Now you are saying it would be acceptable to discriminate against them. Pick one; you can't even stay consistent with your own words. Either Muslims are second class people or not.
 
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

Are you guys really that dense?

Are you really that afraid? 
 
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

The government has a good idea of the typical terrorist. Search those people... I didn't say ethnicity, as muslims could be anyone, but muslim terrorists aren't 80 year old grandmothers, or 4 year old little girls.

The very nature of security is that it targets actions which are atypical. Terrorists do not typically attack airliners; threats to airliners are rather rare. So you've automatically focused incorrectly on what you view as a 'typical' terrorist. Of course, focusing only on the typical establishes a pattern that the enemy will see and exploit. Keep targeting middle eastern young males? They'll find an old Bosnian woman.

Oh hey, I know you like JihadWatch...

Grandmother commits first Hamas suicide attack in two years

 
Here's a fun one... 'Girl of 13 becomes youngest suicide bomber in day of carnage'

I know you've no meaningful experience working in security (or, for that matter, watching out for suicide bombers). I do. If you focus on the obvious you've already failed.


Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

So to send them through the naked scanner, or grope them for "safety" sake is rediculous, and a complete disreguard for the fourth amendment. You know those papers that used to mean we had rights...

By 'we' you apparently mean some concept of 'we' that is exclusive of anyone who you think is Muslim. If the rights of others are not equally significant to you than your own rights, then your claim to 'rights' is merely selfishness, possibly tinged with an unhealthy degree of paranoia.
 
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

Clearly you guys need to read up on Americans rights, as searching everyone with a naked body scanner, or groping them clearly violates the law, as they can't think EVERYONE is a credible threat. This type of thinking is what is wrong with security in our country.
 

No, as an individual voluntarily waives certain expectations of privacy when electing to use a service such as air transportation where they are subject to certain increased intrusions in order to guarantee security. If these intrusions were unlawful they would be successfully challenged in court.

I personally feel that airline security overall is excessive, but I do not accept that there is any justifiable legitimacy in targeting Muslims. Either more security for all or not.
 
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

Bri, listen, in debate, when a premise is destroyed by facts, that point isn't continued to be fronted as factual...
 
And yet, you continually do that with stuff like this.

I focus more on empirical evidence, such as the miniscule number of actual terrorist attacks or plots targeting aircraft. Even if every terrorist attack that has ever happened is incorporated into the data, the risks of a Muslim being an actual terrorist actor are still so small that being Muslim is not a statistically valid predictor of being a threat. An individual is far more likely to be another sort of violent offender, or drug dealer, or what have you than to be a terrorist.
 
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Now you're saying that a fifth of the world population ought to be subjected to particularly discriminatory treatment because of a miniscule minority who share an identifiable trait with them.

 
Many people on this forum have pointed out to you that it is not a miniscule minority, but in fact a large segment of the muslim world that finds no problem with destroying America, and Israel.
 
For you to keep repeating this lie, makes all your points seem disingenuous.

See my comment above about those who might express an angry sentiment on a poll versus those who will actually do something. People are mostly talk, and those polls are no different. There were similar sentiments towards the Muslim world out of America shortly after 9/11, although I believe the numbers of Americans willing to give serious consideration to glassing the middle east were higher. As we've seen, most people are far more restrained in action than they are in expression.

On that note, I've one last question for you. If a 'large segment of the muslim [sic] world finds no problem with destroying America', when are you going to step up and do something about it? Or are you content to chirp me and to cry about the Muslim terrorist under the bed whilst living under the umbrella of security that I and my comrades have worked to provide for you? One would think you'd at least be in the Guard or something.




I'm still very curious to see you reconcile "Muslims are equal" with your implicit claim that they deserve further screening at airports, or that others should receive less than them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 4:25pm
FE are you saying that it is impossible for Muslim extremists to hide explosives or weapons on their daughter?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 4:34pm
I'm very clear... do what Israel does... as it works.
 
 
watch the video in the above link.

Try being informed instead of just opinionated. How long before you admit that Obama was a mistake?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

I'm very clear... do what Israel does... as it works.
 
 
watch the video in the above link.
It's also very clear you don't read replies. It's been said many many times already that it does work, but it would be extremely difficult for that system to work here because the scale is increased so drastically.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 4:38pm
"Would that not apply the proper resources where they will do the most good, while treating everyone everyone less like a criminal?"


Except the ones who "fit the profile"

That is like pulling over the black man in a white town because some black dudes robbed someone.


EDIT: Oh wow let's find a way to blame Obama even for TSA policies that were set well before he existed.

"the reluctance to profile is either a case of Poltical Correctness trumping National Security or a policy put forward by Barack The Magnificent because of opinions he holds"

Edited by jmac3 - 09 November 2010 at 4:40pm
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:


That is like pulling over the black man in a white town because some black dudes robbed someone; several years ago, in a different town.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ceesman762 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

The government has a good idea of the typical terrorist.

The same Goverment you bash right?
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