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Unreasonable search?... Naked body Scan or Groped.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 4:08pm
Notice the lack of mimes in that story.  Their distinct lack of vocal opposition against the white supremacists only mean that they are supporters.  There is no middle ground.  This is one more reason why we, as a community need to step up our offensive against the mimes.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bravo2ZERO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 4:11pm
You know full well that the actions of one, affect the many. As a member of your corps, your regiment, company, or platoon, the actions of an individual represent the actions of the whole. Thus, a disgraceful act begets harsh penalties and public outrage from that group. A public declaration of solidarity against dispicable actions is the norm. ESPECIALLY within a minority society.

You say: "Let the proper authorities deal with it." But do not frame the context in which they are operating... which as someone who claims to have been on the tip of the spear is a great disservice to those people. I've worked in the confused political BS that McChrystal turned Afghanistan into, and can see a much larger confusing beast in the N. American travel system. The only way Afghanistan became easier to operate in, was when the ROE's changed and we were free to reclassify actions into hostile, and deal with it in a battle-group sort-of-way.

Your affilitaion of Islamic Fundamentalists to the Aryan Brotherhood or the Black Panthers is not very apt, as the latter groups do not pull out the holy book and point to a definable and measurable way to justify their actions, straight from the lips of God himself. It is this ability that makes Islamic Terrorism such a real threat. They can, have, and have been able to challenge moderate islam into silence using the book they both read from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

You know full well that the actions of one, affect the many. As a member of your corps, your regiment, company, or platoon, the actions of an individual represent the actions of the whole. Thus, a disgraceful act begets harsh penalties and public outrage from that group. A public declaration of solidarity against dispicable actions is the norm. ESPECIALLY within a minority society. 

What exactly are you looking for? Do you expect Muslims in America to line the streets burning the Qua'ran out of protest to radical extremism? Do you expect them to chant death to their own homelands? I'm not going to scream death to Ireland, just because of the religious unrest that has taken place there in the not too distant past. Nor will I scream death to Germany, because of it's actions during WWII. Do I agree with either of those things? No. Will I damn my own heritage because there are/were some really stupid people there? No.

Look, I see your point, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't argue if a Muslim group spoke up and said that they don't agree with what is going on. My problem with your argument is that many Muslims have done exactly that. Are there some sympathizers? Sure. Does the large majority of the Muslim world think it's completely wrong? Yes. I guess I just don't understand what you're expecting them to do. Form Musli-tron and go search the desert for terrorism training camps to blow up?

You say: "Let the proper authorities deal with it." But do not frame the context in which they are operating... which as someone who claims to have been on the tip of the spear is a great disservice to those people. I've worked in the confused political BS that McChrystal turned Afghanistan into, and can see a much larger confusing beast in the N. American travel system. The only way Afghanistan became easier to operate in, was when the ROE's changed and we were free to reclassify actions into hostile, and deal with it in a battle-group sort-of-way. 

 I'm not even sure what you were trying to say here.

Your affilitaion of Islamic Fundamentalists to the Aryan Brotherhood or the Black Panthers is not very apt, as the latter groups do not pull out the holy book and point to a definable and measurable way to justify their actions, straight from the lips of God himself. It is this ability that makes Islamic Terrorism such a real threat. They can, have, and have been able to challenge moderate islam into silence using the book they both read from. That is the threat of any fundamental religious group, or individual. Muslims are not special.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bravo2ZERO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

^ Triple post, nice.
Certainly not helping the not-FE argument either.


You're really worried about this? Report it to the mods, they can check all my past activity, double check my IP address, and see if ANY of the info they come up with is remotely similiar to that bone-head. I've been a member of this forum for just about longer than everyone else in this thread, and probably longer than most people on this forum. I'm not him.

I'm not saying that he's right. For the record. I AM saying that, with regard to my wartime experience, and my experience in the hinterlands of Afghanistan, I've had the time to study our enemy, and his ilk, and I'm liable to agree that Islam is not the "peace-loving" religion it's been touted to be. It hurts the people who are a part of it, and in my very honest view enslaves them. With my desire to know my enemy I've researched what I can about Islam, and am NOT convinced that it is a religion that can co-exist with it's neighbours, and I believe that the "minority-fundamentalists" of which there are literally multi-millions are reading the book as it is meant to be read.

Not only that, the madrassa's are creating more of them everyday. I spent my entire tour getting targetted by IED's from Pakistani's getting shot by, and shooting at, Chechnyans, Iranians, and Albanians. I have been fighting the Jihad Allstar team, and I think that the islamic threatis underestimated by everyday westerners. Especially when you look at the popular support that they have not only from the obscure african and middle-eastern islamic nations, but also from Muslim populations within the western nations fighting the wars. it's something that I think should be recognized by, if not joe-public, at least the sweating, bleeding grunt on the front-line.

I have never proclaimed to know the answer about the scanners, I'm inclined to say that airport security is 90% a waste of resources. A trained eye is the best tool, and as a highly experienced IED hunter, I feel qualified to say that technology is merely a crutch for the inexperienced... but I don 't make policy. I DO assess threats though, and in my professional opinion, we as a society, are underestimating the Islamic one.

edited for clarity

Edited by Bravo2ZERO - 21 November 2010 at 4:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bravo2ZERO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:


Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

You know full well that the actions of one, affect the many. As a member of your corps, your regiment, company, or platoon, the actions of an individual represent the actions of the whole. Thus, a disgraceful act begets harsh penalties and public outrage from that group. A public declaration of solidarity against dispicable actions is the norm. ESPECIALLY within a minority society.
<font ="Apple-style-span" color="#0000FF">What exactly are you looking for? Do you expectMuslimsin America to line the streets burning the Qua'ran out of protest to radicalextremism? Do you expect them to chant death to their own homelands? I'm not going to scream death to Ireland, just because of the religious unrest that has taken place there in the not too distant past. Nor will I scream death to Germany, because of it's actions during WWII. Do I agree with either of those things? No. Will I damn my own heritage because there are/were some really stupid people there? No.
<font ="Apple-style-span" color="#0000FF">
<font ="Apple-style-span" color="#0000FF">Look, I see your point, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't argue if a Muslim group spoke up and said that they don't agree with what is going on. My problem with your argument is that manyMuslimshave done exactly that. Are there somesympathizers? Sure. Does the large majority of theMuslimworld think it's completely wrong? Yes. I guess I just don't understand what you're expecting them to do. Form Musli-tron and go search the desert for terrorism training camps to blow up?
You say: "Let the proper authorities deal with it." But do not frame the context in which they are operating... which as someone who claims to have been on the tip of the spear is a great disservice to those people. I've worked in the confused political BS that McChrystal turned Afghanistan into, and can see a much larger confusing beast in the N. American travel system. The only way Afghanistan became easier to operate in, was when the ROE's changed and we were free to reclassify actions into hostile, and deal with it in a battle-group sort-of-way.
<font ="Apple-style-span" color="#0000FF">I'm not even sure what you were trying to say here.
Your affilitaion of Islamic Fundamentalists to the Aryan Brotherhood or the Black Panthers is not very apt, as the latter groups do not pull out the holy book and point to a definable and measurable way to justify their actions, straight from the lips of God himself. It is this ability that makes Islamic Terrorism such a real threat. They can, have, and have been able to challenge moderate islam into silence using the book they both read from. <font ="Apple-style-span" color="#0000FF">That is the threat of any fundamentalreligiousgroup, or individual. Muslims are not special.



This was originally meant for Brihard and his initial response to my first post.

It's also the reason why you have seen a ridiculous number of posts from me in the last page or so... I'm terrible at this, having not been on the forum as an active poster in a LOOONG time... I tend to hit "reply" on the post that I am specifically replying to, instead of "quote".... way-back-when, you used to respond to that specific post that way. I'm rusty. Gimme a break :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

Your affilitaion of Islamic Fundamentalists to the Aryan Brotherhood or the Black Panthers is not very apt, as the latter groups do not pull out the holy book and point to a definable and measurable way to justify their actions, straight from the lips of God himself. It is this ability that makes Islamic Terrorism such a real threat. They can, have, and have been able to challenge moderate islam into silence using the book they both read from.
 
Whoa, whoa. Lets back up the logic train here-I was going to stay out of this discussion, because I think it's a problem with no solution that's become an argument run into the ground. But I have a huge issue with your logic-
 
Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

Your affilitaion of Islamic Fundamentalists to the Aryan Brotherhood or the Black Panthers is not very apt, as the latter groups do not pull out the holy book and point to a definable and measurable way to justify their actions, straight from the lips of God himself. 
 
I don't see the difference. Influence is influence. While I agree that the radical Islamic threat is far, far greater than that of White Supremists, I'm also not a minority living in an area where these influences affect me. If I were an African American man living in the 1940's or 50's, I might vehemently disagree with your claim. Whatever method used for brain washing, it's brain washing nonetheless.
 
And I will be the first to say that white people don't owe anyone an apology unless they're directly involved. How outraged are white Americans when someone suggests that they apologize for the actions of their ancestors or contemporaries? I've been hearing it for years from my fellow caucasian Americans, "IM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT MY PEOPLE HAVE DONE", so on and so forth.
 
Yet now, with Muslims, we hold people to the standard that if they're not rallying in the streets against the actions of someone thousands of miles away, they're in agreement with them. It's a double standard.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

^ Triple post, nice. 
Certainly not helping the not-FE argument either.


You're really worried about this? Report it to the mods, they can check all my past activity, double check my IP address, and see if ANY of the info they come up with is remotely similiar to that bone-head. I've been a member of this forum for just about longer than everyone else in this thread, and probably longer than most people on this forum. I'm not him.

I'm not saying that he's right. For the record. I AM saying that, with regard to my wartime experience, and my experience in the hinterlands of Afghanistan, I've had the time to study our enemy, and his ilk, and I'm liable to agree that Islam is not the "peace-loving" religion it's been touted to be. It hurts the people who are a part of it, and in my very honest view enslaves them. With my desire to know my enemy I've researched what I can about Islam, and am NOT convinced that it is a religion that can co-exist with it's neighbours, and I believe that the "minority-fundamentalists" of which there are literally multi-millions are reading the book as it is meant to be read.

Not only that, the madrassa's are creating more of them everyday. I spent my entire tour getting targetted by IED's from Pakistani's getting shot by, and shooting at, Chechnyans, Iranians, and Albanians. I have been fighting the Jihad Allstar team, and I think that the islamic threatis underestimated by everyday westerners. Especially when you look at the popular support that they have not only from the obscure african and middle-eastern islamic nations, but also from Muslim populations within the western nations fighting the wars. it's something that I think should be recognized by, if not joe-public, at least the sweating, bleeding grunt on the front-line.

I have never proclaimed to know the answer about the scanners, I'm inclined to say that airport security is 90% a waste of resources. A trained eye is the best tool, and as a highly experienced IED hunter, I feel qualified to say that technology is merely a crutch for the inexperienced... but I don 't make policy. I DO assess threats though, and in my professional opinion, we as a society, are underestimating the Islamic one.

edited for clarity
Actually, I mixed you up with another person who posted recently, my apologies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bravo2ZERO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 5:42pm
Stratoaxe, I don't see where you are coming from. As an American, you are tasked with explaining, or refuting your position on American issues, whether you like it or not; Foreign policy, Domestic issues, even social issues that have very little to do with any real consequences in the rest of the world... when you rail against them, or rally to them, you are expressing support- for, or against.

That was a poor example, but yours was not entirely in-line with your point either. We are not talking about denying responsibility for something that our ancestors prepetrated. That example was an isolated series of events that is not attributable to even the same generation of people. You are attributing slavery (am I wrong?) to every white person on Earth. A concept of action that, as a people we have long since abandoned as both archaic, and horrifying.

In contrast, I am attributing tacit approval, by lack of counter-action from a group of people against their opposite contemporaries. I've already explained what I mean in this manner, but let me change the example: Take Americans (as this is as both general, and specific as I can get). You've got the anti-war protestors on the campus, and on the streets, screaming about blood for oil... and as a counter, you have a vast movement of people supporting the war, the troops, and joining the military in droves. On both sides you have a debate that at times is cut-throat and bloody (regretfully so). But the point being is that BOTH sides are in counter-point to each other, and both are dedicated to pushing their agenda. There is an equally loud voice on either side.

We'll leave that discussion for another day, since it's been fought out in these forums before,.. but that's exactly my point: There has been no vehement fight from the Muslim moderates towards the Fundamentalists, because the book itself plainly favours the bad guys. And the moderates know it. Which SHOULD be a huge concern to us, in the west. Political correctness is blinding policy-makers to it, because it's terrible to think that something so 'targeting' may be required in our thoughts, it runs contrary to everything we have ever fought for, and learned, and gone so far as died defending: individual freedom and liberty, free from discrimination and prejudice.

I have indeed fought for, bled for, and nearly died defending the values I just mentioned... but a result of that was a desire to question the force I was fighting.

I believe aspects of those values to be our greatest weakness, in that ANYONE can appeal to the institutions that have made us who we are, and in doing so, gain the power to deny those very freedoms.
I firmly believe those values are our most powerful weapon in combating the challenges we are confronted with in Fundamentalist Islam. I'm also and not sure we have misread Islam itself.

If you can find a passage of the Quran that contradicts fundamentalist beliefs, I promise you it is from the earliest writings of Mohammed, which were superceded by increasingly violent writings within the book later on.

Like I said, I don't claim to have the answers... but I do think we have failed to understand the scope of the threat we are facing. How we deal with that threat... well that's something this whole thread was originally about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

 by lack of counter-action from a group of people against their opposite contemporaries. 

So, to you, American Muslims holding mass rallys of some sort is a better way to show their discontent against radical Islam than just living out their lives as peaceful Americans? 

If they all got together and held a rally somewhere, that would pacify your feeling of not trusting American Muslims? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 5:59pm
^My question to bravo (darn you whale) is what do you honestly think should be happening? What do you expect these Muslims to be doing in retaliation to the extremists?

And to your final point, I prefer not to live in a fear mongering society that is scared of it's own shadow. As mentioned earlier in this thread, there are many people who are more than willing to accept an increase in likelihood of death via terrorism; rather than have our civil liberties infringed upon. Honestly, I disagree with you, this threat is not as big as it's been made out to be. I very well could be wrong, and I accept that possibility, and if I am wrong; I still don't believe we should be taking away the very liberties you have fought to preserve.


Edited by __sneaky__ - 21 November 2010 at 6:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

^ Triple post, nice. 
Certainly not helping the not-FE argument either.
I spent my entire tour getting targetted by IED's from Pakistani's getting shot by, and shooting at, Chechnyans, Iranians, and Albanians. I have been fighting the Jihad Allstar team, and I think that the islamic threatis underestimated by everyday westerners. Especially when you look at the popular support that they have not only from the obscure african and middle-eastern islamic nations, but also from Muslim populations within the western nations fighting the wars. it's something that I think should be recognized by, if not joe-public, at least the sweating, bleeding grunt on the front-line.

I think, frankly, that having been immersed in the worst of the worst, everything else of relevance is coloured by those experiences. Those who've been a threat to us constitute only a small minority of radical Muslims. The worst of what the radical part of the religion has to offer has been concentrated where you are - which in and of itself is a place so culturally effed up it defies comprehension. Most of the experience you have with Muslims at this point is the radical type, who have a damnably irritating tendency to try to kill you. That certainly colours one's views on an issue- it took me a bit of time after getting home to step back and get objective again after my tour.

But those are a relative handful out of a population that exceeds a billion, and who largely are utterly disconnected from radicalism. Why should they feel a need to repudiate the actions of radicals? To try to claim that this is akin to you or I repudiating something done by someone in our regiment is absurd; a very small military element cannot be held as analogous to an entire religion. Why should someone born in Indonesia who is Muslim feel any compunction to speak up against people from Yemen who commit terrorist acts? Because they happen to claim that they are part of the same religion? Most people would simply shake their head and carry on with their day, never presuming that we would impose on them amoral obligation to repudiate something they're in no way responsible for or involved in.

How far do you expect normal, peaceful law abiding Muslims to go in order to satisfy your thirst for them to stand out as different from radicals?

Personally, I recognize violent radicalism as very much anomalous among Islam. If the numbers were in any way substantial we would already have lost and you and I would likely already be dead.

I DO recognize the potential dangers of Muslim ghettoization which, coupled with lower socioeconomic status, is leading to the sorts of unrest being seen in France. That's a discussion for another day though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bravo2ZERO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


But those are a relative handful out of a population that exceeds a billion, and who largely are utterly disconnected from radicalism. Why should they feel a need to repudiate the actions of radicals? To try to claim that this is akin to you or I repudiating something done by someone in our regiment is absurd; a very small military element cannot be held as analogous to an entire religion. Why should someone born in Indonesia who is Muslim feel any compunction to speak up against people from Yemen who commit terrorist acts? Because they happen to claim that they are part of the same religion? Most people would simply shake their head and carry on with their day, never presuming that we would impose on them amoral obligation to repudiate something they're in no way responsible for or involved in.
How far do you expect normal, peaceful law abiding Muslims to go in order to satisfy your thirst for them to stand out as different from radicals?
Personally, I recognize violent radicalism as very much anomalous among Islam. If the numbers were in any way substantial we would already have lost and you and I would likely already be dead.
I DO recognize the potential dangers of Muslim ghettoization which, coupled with lower socioeconomic status, is leading to the sorts of unrest being seen inFrance. That's a discussion for another day though.


I do not expect Muslims in Indonesia to protest the actions of Yemenis. I expect them to protest the actions of their own countrymen that is perpetrated in the name of their common faith. The same as I expect an American Muslim to express outrage at a gathering of fundamentalist American Muslims advocating death who (like it or not) represent them to the non-Muslim majority. The same as I expect a Catholic to express outrage over the scandals of Clergymen, the same as I expect outrage from non-jihadis over the destruction of the WTC, while jubilation roared through the rest of the muslim world on 9/11.

You say my comparison of your regiment to a much larger entity is absurd? If a few members of your regiment committed an act that was completely disgracful, and claimed to do it as an act of preservation for the nation... do you not think you and the rest of your unit would do it's utmost not only to ensure the rest of you were not viewed in the same light, but to punish and distance yourself from that group? Is it possible that your Chain of Command (with your support) would seek discipline harder and more vigorously than any others, as the teachers and leaders of the regiment? Even going so far as advocating a harsher punishment than anyone else might ever seek, so as to ensure that never happened again? That is the sort of reaction we would expect, no? And would not the rest of the military wash it's hands of it's association with that group of people? Then is the comparison that absurd? A Muslim terrorist cutting off the head of a jewish child in the name of Islam should be received with condemnation and disgust, by members of that religion, whom that member was representing when he committed the act. The leaders, with popular support, should publicly condemn and denounce that act, and seek harsh justice to discourage that from ever happening again.

Somehow they are completely off-base comparisons?

Ghetto-ization is apart from this discussion (which, quite frankly, has begun to lose it's focus anyway) agreed.

I intentionally left the "objectivity" part of your answer out of my response, as I'm too close to the conflict right now to formulate a response that doesn't sound angry about your assumption.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


But those are a relative handful out of a population that exceeds a billion, and who largely are utterly disconnected from radicalism. Why should they feel a need to repudiate the actions of radicals? To try to claim that this is akin to you or I repudiating something done by someone in our regiment is absurd; a very small military element cannot be held as analogous to an entire religion. Why should someone born in Indonesia who is Muslim feel any compunction to speak up against people from Yemen who commit terrorist acts? Because they happen to claim that they are part of the same religion? Most people would simply shake their head and carry on with their day, never presuming that we would impose on them amoral obligation to repudiate something they're in no way responsible for or involved in.
How far do you expect normal, peaceful law abiding Muslims to go in order to satisfy your thirst for them to stand out as different from radicals?
Personally, I recognize violent radicalism as very much anomalous among Islam. If the numbers were in any way substantial we would already have lost and you and I would likely already be dead.
I DO recognize the potential dangers of Muslim ghettoization which, coupled with lower socioeconomic status, is leading to the sorts of unrest being seen in France. That's a discussion for another day though.


I do not expect Muslims in Indonesia to protest the actions of Yemenis. I expect them to protest the actions of their own countrymen that is perpetrated in the name of their common faith. The same as I expect an American Muslim to express outrage at a gathering of fundamentalist American Muslims advocating death who (like it or not) represent them to the non-Muslim majority. The same as I expect a Catholic to express outrage over the scandals of Clergymen, the same as I expect outrage from non-jihadis over the destruction of the WTC, while jubilation roared through the rest of the muslim world on 9/11.

You say my comparison of your regiment to a much larger entity is absurd? If a few members of your regiment committed an act that was completely disgracful, and claimed to do it as an act of preservation for the nation... do you not think you and the rest of your unit would do it's utmost not only to ensure the rest of you were not viewed in the same light, but to punish and distance yourself from that group? Is it possible that your Chain of Command (with your support) would seek discipline harder and more vigorously than any others, as the teachers and leaders of the regiment? Even going so far as advocating a harsher punishment than anyone else might ever seek, so as to ensure that never happened again? That is the sort of reaction we would expect, no? And would not the rest of the military wash it's hands of it's association with that group of people? Then is the comparison that absurd? A Muslim terrorist cutting off the head of a jewish child in the name of Islam should be received with condemnation and disgust, by members of that religion, whom that member was representing when he committed the act. The leaders, with popular support, should publicly condemn and denounce that act, and seek harsh justice to discourage that from ever happening again.

Somehow they are completely off-base comparisons?

Ghetto-ization is apart from this discussion (which, quite frankly, has begun to lose it's focus anyway) agreed.

I intentionally left the "objectivity" part of your answer out of my response, as I'm too close to the conflict right now to formulate a response that doesn't sound angry about your assumption.

Yes, I maintain that it's absurd. I know - personally, or at least by sight - pretty much every member of my regiment. We're specifically identifiable and associable in a very direct way. Moreover, we have each separately voluntarily subscribed to that very distinct shared identity. We work together, either directly or in the larger context of the regiment. IT's a MUCH closer moral proximity than anything that could be claimed to exist amongst coreligionists.

There is precedent for your point. After those yahoos from the Queen's Own Rifles murdered the homeless guy the whole military in general took a hit, and that unit in particular- and they denounced it out of shame and out of sensitivity to the association, and because it seems to be expected of them. But a military unit has a very distinct hierarchy that doesn't exist in Islam. There's no established church hierarchy. There's no Pope. There's no college of Cardinals. Islam doesn't have a chain of command that defines those associational links and that quantifies the moral proximity of anyone at any level.

A better example would not be if I, as a soldier, would repudiate the actions of someone of my unit. You're drawing an association that's much clsoer than actually exists. Better would be whether I, as a Canadian, actively go out and denounce the actions of, say, Paul Bernardo- or even, if you want to draw a middle association, Russell Williams. No, I don't. I shake my head, think, 'man, what a sick POS', deride as idiots those who think that because I wear a uniform somehow I should be in any way morally acco**edited**able for Williams' actions, and I go on with my day. The deviance and the anomaly of the cases is so extreme that there's nothing there that I feel compelled to make any active effort to distance myself form, because I think it's completely unreasonable for anyone to assume that there's any association to begin with such that that I *need* demonstrate that distance.

Just because we reflexively distance ourselves form things that are reprehensible - even if there was never any association to begin with, and even if no reasonable person would assume there is - doesn't mean that somehow dissociation and repudiation of something unrelated to you is something we should establish as a norm. Normal, moderate, non violent Muslims have no reason to think themselves responsible for actively defining a distance between themselves and those who pervert the religion to radical ends. The radicals are already separated form the mainstream by their own actions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bravo2ZERO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 7:31pm
Because there are not enough police to police every opening in an open society, either the Muslim world begins to really restrain, inhibit and denounce its own extremists or the West is going to do it for them. And the West will do it in a rough, crude way by simply shutting them out, denying them visas and making every Muslim in its midst guilty until proven innocent. And because I think that would be a disaster, it is essential that the Muslim world wake up to the fact that it has a jihadist death cult in its midst. If it does not fight that death cult, that cancer, within its own body politic, it is going to infect Muslim-Western relations everywhere. Only the Muslim world can root out that death cult. It takes a village.

Why this doesn't seem reasonable to anyone is beyond me.

This is the crux at what I've been trying to get at, and why I have my suspicions of the moderates in Islam. And it is precisely because there is no CoC, Pope, or College of Imams in Islam that there must be grassroots shows of support for western efforts to destroy Jihadists, because no one is going to do it for them. There are religious leaders in the Muslim communities who should be responsible for reflecting their beliefs, and leading their congregations in the fight against terror. And there will be a point where there is no more room for waffling on this.

As for your mention of Russell Williams... you were not required to stand up against it- the organization did it for you. You were free to shake your head, and be on your way, because Generals and PAO's began working around the clock to distance the rest of the CF, myself and you included, from something that could cast a stain on the rest of us.

I liked how you told me my comparison was absurd, and then presented a real precedent that was exactly what I was thinking of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:



As for your mention of Russell Williams... you were not required to stand up against it- the organization did it for you. You were free to shake your head, and be on your way, because Generals and PAO's began working around the clock to distance the rest of the CF, myself and you included, from something that could cast a stain on the rest of us.

I liked how you told me my comparison was absurd, and then presented a real precedent that was exactly what I was thinking of.

You miss my point. Regardless of the actions of generals and PAffOs, I simply would not have 'spoken up against' his actions anyway; they're reprehensible in and of themselves, and I consider anyone who would associate you or I with them to be an idiot. They spoke more to defend the procedures and organization of the military, and how someone like that rose to command - and to show how quickly and decisively the military had acted. Yes, they spoke to try to distance the rest of us from it, but that was secondary - even incidental - and mostly political at that. I maintain that it would have been unnecessary anyway on both logical and moral grounds. Few but the most unreasonable or conspiracy minded Canadians would have made the link under any circumstances anyway.

I have the same view towards Islamist radicalism. I do see the merit in what you're saying on the 'it takes a village' front. Certianly it will be *easier* on the Muslim world if they do so- but it will be easier on them because it serves as a hedge against the Western world being unreasonable, not because there's any actual onus on them to do so. Renouncing radicalism, extremism, violence, etc is ALWAYS a better solution- but it's not something that, strictly speaking, is necessary for those with even a tenuous connection to the radical element to do.

I reject that simply being Muslim conveys enough moral proximity to radicalism for there to be any onus on moderate Muslims to actively renounce the violent extremists. Many do so anyway- witness the recent Fatwa against radicalism issued by,of all people, Syed Soharwardy, and signed by an additional 19 Imams, mostly here in Canada. But I won't support any sort of lesser treatment of normal Muslims because they don't do so, nor will I tacitly consent to any imposition on the rights of individuals who happen to be Muslim because of what is, really, the very minor threat presented by radicalism that is perpetrated by a very small number of people with only the most tenuous of ideological connections to the mainstream. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bravo2ZERO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 8:30pm
And therein lies the basis for the beginning of this discussion in the first place... what to do about it?

I maintain my position of: "I don't know what the answer is."

I also maintain my position of "Muslims need to get their act together, and begin condemning Jihadists, or risk a total reaction from the west. If that happens, we will not need to resort to taking further measures."

We can agree to disagree on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

And therein lies the basis for the beginning of this discussion in the first place... what to do about it?

I maintain my position of: "I don't know what the answer is."

I also maintain my position of "Muslims need to get their act together, and begin condemning Jihadists, or risk a total reaction from the west. If that happens, we will not need to resort to taking further measures."

We can agree to disagree on this.

Fair enough. Approve

Isn't it something like four in the morning over there?


Edited by brihard - 21 November 2010 at 8:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 9:02pm
A breakdown of the issues I have here: 

Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

"Muslims

Before we were speaking about Muslims in the U.S., so I'm going to assume from here on out that it is that group we are talking about here.

Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

 need to get their act together,

How? What? What exactly have Muslims or New York done to deserve criticism or scorn from the rest of us? As U.S. citizens, what burden of responsibility to they owe to anyone concerning what people who also follow their religion and do bad things? 

Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

 and begin condemning Jihadists,

Any American Muslim I've spoken to has not brought up anything even close to anti-U.S. sentiment up in conversation. Why is the burden of situation upon them to apologize or declare condemnation of Muslim terrorists? 

It'd be like me expecting an outcry of apology when George Tiller was murdered. I didn't, because I know the vast majority of Christians don't want to murder abortion doctors. 

And here is a hint for you: American Muslims are seen as just as much as an enemy of radical Islamists as any of the rest of U.S. citizens are. 

Again, I'll ask: If all U.S. Muslims held some kind of rally, would that appease you? What would soothe your worry? 

Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

 or risk a total reaction from the west.

What kind of reaction are you talking about here? What kind of "reaction?" 

You mean like when we rounded up Japanese-Americans in the 1940s? 

Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

 If that happens, we will not need to resort to taking further measures. 

What does this even mean? 

Originally posted by Bravo2ZERO Bravo2ZERO wrote:

We can agree to disagree on this.

You'll note that I don't care about your military service four flying hoots. I don't care about what you've done. I don't find it much of an excuse for xenophobic, jingoistic threats against Americans. The feelings you are expressing were the same moronic gestures made against Germans during WW1, when people went into a frenzy and stoned German Shepherds in the street because they felt it was supporting the enemy to have such a dog as a pet. 





Edited by agentwhale007 - 21 November 2010 at 9:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

You'll note that I don't care about your military service four flying hoots. I don't care about what you've done. I don't find it much of an excuse for xenophobic, jingoistic threats against Americans. The feelings you are expressing were the same moronic gestures made against Germans during WW1, when people went into a frenzy and stoned German Shepherds in the street because they felt it was supporting the enemy to have such a dog as a pet. 

A bit uncalled for I think- and this isn't me just leaping to the defence of a brother here.

You'll note something he said earlier-

Quote And because I think that would be a disaster, it is essential that the Muslim world wake up to the fact that it has a jihadist death cult in its midst. If it does not fight that death cult, that cancer, within its own body politic, it is going to infect Muslim-Western relations everywhere. Only the Muslim world can root out that death cult. It takes a village.

I don't believe he's suggesting that such broad-brush responses from Americans would be proper, desirable or defensible; on the contrary he seems to think the opposite. I think he's saying - with some merit - that regardless of their justification, such responses may well simply result out of a pissed off, scared American population. It's the same sort of islamophobia that was in vogue in some circles after 9/11. Sort of a "we'll have none of it" approach.

I don't think he's talking exclusively - or even particularly inclusively - of Muslim Americans, but of Muslims living elsewhere where those radical communities are more distinct.

If I read his thesis correctly, it's that eventually Americans will get sick of worrying about which Muslims to oppose, and just wall them all out. I don't think it's nearly so simple as he seems to describe, but the basic premise has some credibility to it. Subject a population to enough crap (or convince them that that has happened), give them a simplistic enough scapegoat, and some bad stuff can happen.

I could be wrong,but that's how I read it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2010 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

I don't think it's nearly so simple as he seems to describe, but the basic premise has some credibility to it. Subject a population to enough crap 

And his suggestion for American/Western Muslims to be constantly and vocally opposed to something they have no part of is jingoistic and xenophobic. Mayhap I'm reading it wrong, but it is essentially a threat of "Hey, better start apologizing for something people you've never met and having nothing to do with are doing, or else things might get bad for you." 

Place the blame on the people who will generalize, not the equivalent of American-Germans in the 1910s. 

Not only that, but they very thing you quote him on: 

Quote  it is essential that the Muslim world wake up to the fact that it has a jihadist death cult in its midst. 

Is silly at a good choice of words. 

How many American Muslims are not aware that there are people making them all look like killers and deviants? What exactly does this even mean? When asked, he's responded with nothing to explain what exactly he wants, other than repeating that American Muslims need to be more condemning. 

Which is simply not a very intelligent viewpoint. And I've sugar-coated that up not to offend. 



Edited by agentwhale007 - 21 November 2010 at 10:25pm
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