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ParielIsBack View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2010 at 8:33am
Is anyone in here a liberal arts major?

Chef. Nope.
Photographer. Nope.
Pre-med. Nope (OK, I guess we can stretch this one because people in general seem to include sciences in liberal arts.)
Journalist. Nope.
Engineer. Nope.
Economics/Marketing. Yes/no.

How many people actually have a degree in a liberal arts field?

For the record that would mean: philosophy, history, language, or literature (although as I've said you could include yourself if you study math or science).

The people on this forum have shown "important" liberal arts are by the simple fact that they haven't chosen to pursue them, because all of the areas of study come up in every other field.

Furthermore, most of the people studying liberal arts will be sitting in an office doing paperwork some day, applying exactly nothing they learned to earn their degree.  Society as a whole would be a lot better off training those people to do a job, instead of wasting hundreds of millions or billions of dollars every year to have over-trained, underachieving middle class workers.

Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

 
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


 Last time I checked, drinking, smoking pot and chasing women is not a recognized profession.

I have a class at an engineering school that has been rated #1 in the country for something like 11 years in a row.

I can tell you that MIT students party hard.  But they work hard first.  Partying four days a week pretty much excludes that possibility.

If I'm boring for not smoking pot and getting drunk every weekend, and having a steady girlfriend for four years who will be far more successful than me, well I'm not exactly going to apologize for being happy and having what most college students are going to go looking for in a decade.

That part I really am serious about.  The rest of the argument, well, meh.  Most of my friends are not engineers, and frankly I could care less about majors.  I love studying history.  Perhaps like Whale's ex-engineering friend I didn't pursue it because it was too easy for me, but it would be incredibly stupid to remove it as a component of education.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2010 at 8:45am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Is anyone in here a liberal arts major?

Does this matter? Unlike you, the calculated engineer, I can enjoy the outcomes of research and effort in a field of study without actually being in it. 

I don't see academics as a measuring contest. 

Quote most of the people studying liberal arts will be sitting in an office doing paperwork some day,

As opposed to the engineer, sitting in a cubicle doing paperwork, but with a calculator?

Quote Society as a whole would be a lot better off training those people to do a job, instead of wasting hundreds of millions or billions of dollars every year to have over-trained, underachieving middle class workers.

This is one of the most silly things posted on the forum right now. And that is impressive, because FEaper is still around. 

Listen to what you are saying: Society would be better if people who had a job doing something had a job doing something else. So take the people doing job A, send them to engineering school, and have them in job B. Really? In this, you're schlepping off the contributions to society by all the liberal arts folks that you don't care for. Not to mention that the majority of engineers end up at desk/cubicle jobs as well. 

I'm just confused, overall, as to what you said has to do with anything involving anything. Please tell me exactly how society would be better off if everyone was "trained to do a job?" What would these "jobs" be? And what would the training be? And where would they work? Would you be OK with the spiral of anti-intellectualism that it would cause? 

"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2010 at 8:14pm
Wawawa I am an engineer and think lesser degrees are useless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2010 at 9:00pm
I think what Pariell is awkwardly getting at is the perceived sense of entitlement that some liberal arts students have.  Student gets into a respected school, student majors in East-Asian Philosophy, student goofs off for 4 years, student collects $100k + in debt, student can't find a job with their skills, student is unhappy "ITS NOT FAIR!".

These people do exist, and they are dumb. But they aren't limited to Liberal Arts students. Plenty of Engineering students rush through school, never do any projects or internships or find a job, and they can't figure out why their classmates a semester behind are getting picked up by Northrop Grumen or Cisco right out of school.  

Is it harder to find a lucrative, enjoyable career as a Liberal Arts major? You bet. If a person with one of those majors can't find work, will I feel sorry for them? Not really.  If an Engineering student who rushed through without a plan can't find work will I feel sorry for them? Yes, but only a little more then a Liberal Arts major.

And Whale, I resent the insinuation that Engineers only work in Cubicles with Calculators . . . We usually have whiteboards too ;)
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2010 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

I think what Pariell is awkwardly getting at is the perceived sense of entitlement that some liberal arts students have. 

 


And, ironically, decided to do so by exuding a sense of entitlement?


Bold strategy. And as a Poli-Sci major, I laugh at some of his generalities and uninformed beliefs about post undergrad opportunities for LA majors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2010 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:



And Whale, I resent the insinuation that Engineers only work in Cubicles with Calculators . . . We usually have whiteboards too ;)
 

On that note, you should have seen the look on my classmates this morning when the professor said we needed to bring a calculator to our Mass Comm Methods final. 

It's for basic things like figuring out basic variable correlation proofs (Spearman's Rho, etc.) but still, math strikes fear in the hearts of all of us, including me. 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 08 November 2010 at 9:09pm
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 12:41am
I started at a 30k a year engineering school... dropped out because I hated engineering and the people involved with it.  I graduated, got a job the week before graduation, and am making either basically the same amount, or more, than the engineer friends I kept up with. 


I think engineering students get their attitudes from the engineering professors. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 10:05am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Is anyone in here a liberal arts major?

Chef. Nope.
Photographer. Nope.
Pre-med. Nope (OK, I guess we can stretch this one because people in general seem to include sciences in liberal arts.)
Journalist. Nope.
Engineer. Nope.
Economics/Marketing. Yes/no.

How many people actually have a degree in a liberal arts field?

For the record that would mean: philosophy, history, language, or literature (although as I've said you could include yourself if you study math or science).

The people on this forum have shown "important" liberal arts are by the simple fact that they haven't chosen to pursue them, because all of the areas of study come up in every other field.

Furthermore, most of the people studying liberal arts will be sitting in an office doing paperwork some day, applying exactly nothing they learned to earn their degree.  Society as a whole would be a lot better off training those people to do a job, instead of wasting hundreds of millions or billions of dollars every year to have over-trained, underachieving middle class workers.


Just about there. Four year honours degree in criminology and criminal justice with a concentration in sociology and a minor in political science (emphasizing conflict and IR). I've taken electives in moral philosophy and history, as well.

You seem to assume that nothing we learn will relate, in time, to our jobs. On the contrary, the pure subject matter knowledge we gain contributes greatly to our understanding of 'the bigger picture' in what we're working in. If I get into the police I can be a 'cog in the machine' of the cirminal justice system, or I can understand where I fit in the larger role of things, and grasp the potentially larger significance of individual cases, of pre-and-post charge diversion on recidivism, of specific sentencing decisions.

As a soldier, I can understand where a given conflict I may serve in actually matters- why I fight, not just because someone told me to. 'Don't shoot civilians; it's against the law' turns into 'don't shoot civilians, our entire strategy requires good relations with the locals, and the potential long term effects of a serious mistake could compromise our efforts'.  I also understand how fragile our system is, and how critical it is to protect it, even at cost to myself.

Then there's our ability to *grasp* the bigger picture outside of us, to see trends emerging, and to understand their significance. When I go to the polls to vote for the government, I'm not voting based on what I see on TV ads, but with a critical look at the actual stances on the issues that matter to me, informed by what I've learned.

My moral philosophy course was instrumental in teaching me how formulate, defend, and critique and argument. Every essay I've written in any class has drawn from what I learned there.

My history classes have contributed to my general knowledge of the world, and have helped to situate modern events in proper historical context that *does* affect how things play out.

The dozens of essays I've written have translated directly into writing better cover letters, or even in some cases better formal correspondence at work that has helped to communicate issues to my chain of command that need to be resolved. My confidence in my field of subject knowledge gives me more confidence in advocating my informed positions on things that are important to me, and have helped me so far in at least one job interview in my field (more to follow on that sometime this week, I hope). My 'liberal arts education' got me an eight month work placement at a youth jail that has added invaluable experience and breadth to my resume.

Have I done a lot of stuff that doesn't very much directly bear on things as they stand? Yes, absolutely. Is any of it useless? No, absolutely not. Every thing I've learned and done is a small part of the sum total of what and who I am.

My thoughts on this were best described to me by an engineer I randomly met in a pub; an older guy. He described how, having not gotten work at all related to his field, he ended up doing economics work in a building downtown. Looking out his office window, there are two historical bridges, one built somewhat earlier, the other somewhat later. He described being able to understand what he was looking at, noting that different construction methods took into account different technologies, masses, shear strengths, etc etc, and he saw how those small technological differences had contributed to two entirely different bridges filling the same function. Then what he told me me was, "I never really directly used what I learned, but when I look out my window I can see a small part of the world in a way that nobody else I work with can".

Speaking for myself, I'd like to learn to see the world as completely as I'm able. My education is a means to that end, and the rest will come as it will. There's not a bit of it that I'd rather have missed out on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 10:27am
But, but, BRIHARD, memorizing formulas and how to use them IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND SUPERIOR.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 10:47am
Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:


 
 
When I was in college, you had to type papers... Period.
Only a few kids had computers with printers.
 
Handwritten with chicken scratch like that would yield a F.
 
Course we had to wear a tie (for guys, skirt for girls) to every class, and even to eat... So it was different than most liberal universities.


Edited by The Reaper - 09 November 2010 at 10:50am

Try being informed instead of just opinionated. How long before you admit that Obama was a mistake?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 11:15am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

How many people actually have a degree in a liberal arts field?

Philosophy/history major here. I don't have my degree yet, but I'll check back aft the end of summer '11.
Quote Furthermore, most of the people studying liberal arts will be sitting in an office doing paperwork some day, applying exactly nothing they learned to earn their degree.

On the contrary, sir. The instruction I've received in writing and argument composition/analysis will have been (and already is) greatly beneficial to me. The near-constant critiques I've received have greatly increased my capability to reason on any subject presented to me, and the my ability to articulate said reasoning has increased to a similar degree. Even if I don't get a job that requires me to use Kant's metaphysics, I'll have benefited from reading and understanding his works.
Quote Society as a whole would be a lot better off training those people to do a job, instead of wasting hundreds of millions or billions of dollars every year to have over-trained, underachieving middle class workers.

Similarly, how much better off are you getting a B.S. than you would be getting an internship/clerkship/whatever in an engineering firm and getting paid to learn while working at your job? Is there anything necessitating that you have a college degree, or is it just that you are doing this because the norm today is to get a degree?

Nearly all of your complaints/observations can be made about non-liberal arts majors as well, but for some reason you don't see it.

And again, lol at you thinking the point of higher learning is to get a job. Universities != trade schools. It's become standard practice to use a degree to get a job, yes, but seeing universities as a means to a job is perverting the idea on which nearly every one of those institutions was formed on.
 
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

having what most college students are going to go looking for in a decade.

And yet you could have it anyway, without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, if you applied yourself to the job the way you apply yourself to the education.
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

So it was different than most liberal universities.

You're such a troll.


Edited by Gatyr - 09 November 2010 at 11:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:


 
 
When I was in college, you had to type papers... Period.
Only a few kids had computers with printers.
 
Handwritten with chicken scratch like that would yield a F.
 
Course we had to wear a tie (for guys, skirt for girls) to every class, and even to eat... So it was different than most liberal universities.
It was an in-class assignment. 

You can step off your horse now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 1:16pm
Out of pure curiosity with no point intended I'm studying Law and Philosophy. What does that make me?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2010 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

 So it was different than most liberal universities.

You went to Bob Jones, yeah? Or am I mistaken? 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2011 at 8:40am
This seems legit guys. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2011 at 8:59am
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

I think what Pariell is awkwardly getting at is the perceived sense of entitlement that some liberal arts students have. 

 


And, ironically, decided to do so by exuding a sense of entitlement?


Bold strategy. And as a Poli-Sci major, I laugh at some of his generalities and uninformed beliefs about post undergrad opportunities for LA majors.


Pretty much this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2011 at 12:18pm
So how those liberal arts majors going for you guys?

Oh wait, I forgot no one has a liberal arts degree.  My bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2011 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

So how those liberal arts majors going for you guys?

Oh wait, I forgot no one has a liberal arts degree.  My bad.

Wanna hammer out your definition of 'liberal arts' then?

My program is Criminology and Criminal Justice with a concentration in sociology and a minor in political science- my degree will be a mix of psychology, sociology, and law, with electives in history and philosophy, and a minor in political science. Would you consider my program to be a 'liberal arts' degree? I would.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2011 at 12:34pm
It's also worth pointing out that it doesn't matter if I'm involved in liberal arts or not, I still don't think it's a lesser study. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2011 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

So how those liberal arts majors going for you guys?Oh wait, I forgot no one has a liberal arts degree.† My bad.


I'm in Interactive Arts and Technology, focussing on Media Arts and Design...so.....
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