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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 6:42pm
Yet another thread reinforcing my belief that many conservatives aren't necessarily opposed to an Orwellian society; just one that doesn't fit their politics. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 6:43pm
Wait wait wait... can either of you two show me where I said alcohol was any less dangerous?


I said alcohol has many proven medical benefits... mind picking up a scientific study that proves the opposite?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

I, personally, would rather be really tired from an opiod overdose than have cancer.

Again: How many overdoses of heroin have there been compared to marijuana? 

And, since you are avoiding the answer, I'll ask a followup to your proposition: 

Herion is supposedly safe if overdoses are avoided using another prescription drug. How many times has an overdose of marijuana occurred where the use of another drug was needed to prevent death? 

Quote
So instead of banning an unsafe substance, you make another unsafe substance easier to access?

"Unsafe" is a comparative element. If we attempt to ban all "unsafe" drugs within society, we're taking away all over-the-counter drugs, eliminating all prescription drugs, and banning alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. 

It's simply not realistic in society to consider this. Instead, we base our decisions on what is legal and illegal based on its health effects, amongst other things. Which is why it is important to have an honest debate about the health effects of marijuana as it compares to other accepted and legal items. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 7:19pm
He is also is claiming heroin to be safer than marijuana. Yeah, except one is a physically addictive opiate and the other is just habituating.

Also, if you're going to complain about smokers and healthcare, which scenario makes more sense:

Person A smokes and the money goes to technical criminals.

OR

Person A smokes and pays taxes on what he smokes, which can then be put towards healthcare. It's not like it's a tax you would have to pay unless you were the one smoking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

He is also is claiming heroin to be safer than marijuana. Yeah, except one is a physically addictive opiate and the other is just habituating.

Also, if you're going to complain about smokers and healthcare, which scenario makes more sense:

Person A smokes and the money goes to technical criminals.

OR

Person A smokes and pays taxes on what he smokes, which can then be put towards healthcare. It's not like it's a tax you would have to pay unless you were the one smoking.
Choop, you are quite obviously wrong. Don't you know?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 10:16pm
Linus, I normally back you in these discussion, but I disagree with two forms of logic you're using-
 
1:) Unsafe = illegal. Now while I agree that if insurances (both government and commercial) don't want to cover smoking related illness, they shouldn't have to.
 
But that's a completely different discussion. The discussion here is that something should be legal / illegal based upon its harmful effects. I say if you want to harm yourself, go ahead.
 
And in all honesty, there are ten million things that can be proved to "contribute" to cancer. But there are comparative degrees of contribution to the cancer cause-and as far as I've seen, marijuana is very low on that list. If we banned everything that is unhealthy, McDonald's and Cinnabun would be the first to do, because they're gonna kill you much faster than marijuana.

I think it's my right to be self destructive. Now again, on the governement's dime is a completely different discussion, one that doesn't directly relate to leaglity.
 
2:) Your alcohol vs nicotine vs marijuana vs the world argument. The problem with alcohol is that, while it may pose some health benefits, it is by the far the most socially destructive of all of them. How many people have ever been killed in an auto accident directly related to mary jane? Or tobacco? Alcohol, of all these substances, is the one that is the biggest candidate for a discussion of legality.
 
Alcohol is probably one of, if not the most, socially destructive drugs in the US. While the discussion of heroin, mj, etc, is how much it hurts you, alcohol hurts those around you with drunk driving etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GI JOES SON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 10:22pm
choop- out of curiosity, being a Canadian, why do you care about laws passed in the US?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 10:31pm
My number one problem with legalizing marijuana?

It's a lot harder to test for someone being high at a traffic stop than it is to test if they're drunk.  Last time I checked, breathalizers don't pick up the fact that you've been smoking weed the last 40 miles. So, everyone that wants to get up on a high horse and pretend t his is an alcohol vs weed debate, (which it is not) I ask you to explain to me ho wwe deal with things like that as well.  Because I know WAY WAY WAY more people who drive high than those who drive drunk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by GI JOES SON GI JOES SON wrote:

choop- out of curiosity, being a Canadian, why do you care about laws passed in the US?


Because ideally cannabis would already be legal or at least tolerated on the level of the netherlands in Canada, yet its not. Progress has to start somewhere, and good for California for trying. Ideally it would be a success and others would follow suit, but that's hard to tell.

Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

My number one problem with legalizing marijuana?It's a lot harder to test for someone being high at a traffic stop than it is to test if they're drunk.  Last time I checked, breathalizers don't pick up the fact that you've been smoking weed the last 40 miles. So, everyone that wants to get up on a high horse and pretend t his is an alcohol vs weed debate, (which it is not) I ask you to explain to me ho wwe deal with things like that as well.  Because I know WAY WAY WAY more people who drive high than those who drive drunk.


I agree, although testing in this area is extremely limited by it being a schedule I drug. That categorization is nuts considering what that requires, and hopefully a test could be figured out. It's not impossible, it just hasn't been done. Saliva tests are close, but they would be positive for any time in the last 24 hours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:


I am not claiming it to be a wonder cure to everything, at all. I'll put it this way: tons of people already do it, and that simply wont change. This is prohibition again, with something less harmful than alcohol. It's silly to keep something like cannabis illegal when it wastes so many resources and doesn't stop anything.


The statement that lots of people do it, therefore it should be legal is not a strong enough argument for me to support something. I still do not see any reason why marijuana should be legal for adults to use without a prescription.

Feel free to try and convince me otherwise for I am not decided on the matter but so far I have yet to see the benifit to legalize marijuana to adults that wish to use it without a prescription.

Comparing it to tabacoo and alcohol to me is comparing apples to oranges. Those arguments are not going to convince me to change my mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2010 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by God God wrote:

Feel free to try and convince me otherwise for I am not decided on the matter but so far I have yet to see the benifit to legalize marijuana to adults that wish to use it without a prescription.
 
Why does there need to be a reason for something to be legal?
 
You need a reason for it to be illegal. That's my thing, I don't have a reason it should be legal, any more than why X-Box's, Satellite TV, or porno needs to be legal. All of those things have major drawbacks in society, but in the end, we don't sit around and ask why they need to be legal. They don't. We could all live healthier, more intelligent lives without them. But we look for evidence to make them illegal, and that's where we come up short.
 
That's why we bring up the tobacco and alcohol comparisons. It's apples and orangers for sure, but we're not arguing the specific elements. We're arguin the logic.
 
Just to be clear, I don't smoke pot. I've been through a few phases where I smoked, but really I like to keep my self substance free. I kept up a nasty alcohol habit that made me pretty sick for a while, but even that has fizzled into nothing.
 
I say that, because I have no personal stake in any of these arguments. I don't care if cigarettes are illegal personally, I don't smoke and never will. But I think that when you have the power to label something unnecessary and therefore lacking in legality, it's a slippery slope.
 
Not to mention the tax dollars that go into enforcing it. I realize it isn't going to make a massive dent in the the deficit, but honestly, why pay for enforcing laws that don't protect us from anything?
 
I just don't see the logic. For me, it's the opposite of what you said-I have yet to see anyone convince me why it should be illegal, current status notwithstanding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2010 at 12:56am

Personal use of marijuana results only in a ticket for personal use/possesion so little tax money is used as it stands. The tax money is being spent on enforcing federal law which this vote does not affect.



As for why I thing marijuana should remain illegal is for the same reason speeding in a vehicle is illegal. It is to protect society at large. Sure, in a vaccum marijuana is not normally a dangerous substance. Unfortunately, individuals do not live in a bubble but are part of a society. The effects marijuana has on a person may seem relatively harmless but looking through a wider scope, those effects can cause greater harm than what is immediately percieved. Example - Powerplant worker ingests some marijauna on his break at work. His slowed reaction time delays him from reacting quicly enough to prevent emergency from occuring. Society was unnessisarily put in danger. Because marijuana use is legal powerplant operator not liable for resulting emergancy. Medical marijauna user would not be in same situation because work requirements would not allow operator to perform job while on prescription meds. There are other endless examples that could be used so try not to focus the discussion around the example but more on the premiss that marijuana use has a potential negative affect on society if veiwed from a larger scope than just looking at the indiviual effects on the user.

I am curious? What are the negative effects of tv, xbox, and porn in your opinion?









Edited by God - 24 October 2010 at 12:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2010 at 1:09am

I can see where you're coming from, but a couple of things-

Originally posted by God God wrote:

Because marijuana use is legal powerplant operator not liable for resulting emergancy.
 
This is a work policy issue. Legality does not dictate policy-for example, if that operator was playing his PSP while operating his part of the plant, he most certainly would have a slowed reaction time, probably much slower than that of mary jane. And PSP's are certainly legal, so why aren't PSP's an inherit danger to society?
 
Because his work policy specifically forbids using PSP's (at least we all hope to God) while operating equipment, regardless of legality. I have no doubt that the same policies would apply to marijuana, if it were legalized.
 
As far as your speeding example, I don't see the correlation. I can smoke pot without endangering society, I can't speed in a car without doing so.
 
Originally posted by God God wrote:

I am curious? What are the negative effects of tv, xbox, and porn in your opinion?
 
TV and XBOX have created  generation of lazy, obese couch potato kids.
 
The excessive use of porn screws up marriages, etc.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2010 at 1:16am
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

He is also is claiming heroin to be safer than marijuana. Yeah, except one is a physically addictive opiate and the other is just habituating.


I never, not once, said heroin was "safer" than marijuana. This is the second time you've either mis-interpreted or mis-read something I put in this thread and ran with it making stuff up.

I said, all things considered, it's relatively safe. I haven't heard of anyone dying from any other thing attributed to diamorphine THAN respiratory depression, easily reversible with Nalaxone or any other narcotic antagonist.


Jumping out of a plane is relatively safe as well, so long as you have a parachute. Am I crazy for saying that as well?


Originally posted by strato strato wrote:

2:) Your alcohol vs nicotine vs marijuana vs the world argument. The problem with alcohol is that, while it may pose some health benefits, it is by the far the most socially destructive of all of them. How many people have ever been killed in an auto accident directly related to mary jane? Or tobacco? Alcohol, of all these substances, is the one that is the biggest candidate for a discussion of legality.

Alcohol is probably one of, if not the most, socially destructive drugs in the US. While the discussion of heroin, mj, etc, is how much it hurts you, alcohol hurts those around you with drunk driving etc.


Agreed, mostly. However the major problem with alcohol is most people don't SEE it as being that destructive. You working in the hospital and me working in the field know better as we see it's abilities, but most people don't respect it's power.


Does that make what happens right? Of course not, but considering how socially ingrained alcohol is IN THE WORLD today, it's a bit harder to change peoples views.

However, driving under the influence of marijuana is unsafe as well.



Every single drug in existence, including Oxygen, has harmful effects and can kill. What makes anyone think Marijuana is an exception?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote little devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2010 at 1:20am
Originally posted by God God wrote:

  Example - Powerplant worker ingests some marijauna on his break at work. His slowed reaction time delays him from reacting quicly enough to prevent emergency from occuring. Society was unnessisarily put in danger. Because marijuana use is legal powerplant operator not liable for resulting emergancy.


I`d imagine it be like alcohol when legal. The same power plant worker should have to face the same consequences as if he was drinking on the job.

Pot should be legal so you don`t have to face criminal charges if caught with it. It should be legal to help slow down the money organized crime makes selling and growing it.  It`s a multi million dollar operation with ALL profits going nowhere but into ``criminals`` hands.

Pot being illegal only helps organized crime, its a darn cash cow.  I`d like to see how many millions are going to people who are doing a ton worse based on the income from marijuana.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2010 at 1:23am
Originally posted by little devil little devil wrote:

It`s a multi million dollar operation with ALL profits going nowhere but into ``criminals`` hands. Pot being illegal only helps organized crime, its a darn cash cow.


So... you blame the government instead of the people who buy and use the illegal substance?

If no one used the drug, no money would go to the cartels. Problem solved. But instead people believe they have the right to do what they want, when they want, consequences be damned, then blame the government when things go wrong.



Like I said earlier, this country lacks personal responsibility.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2010 at 1:33am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Every single drug in existence, including Oxygen, has harmful effects and can kill. What makes anyone think Marijuana is an exception?
 
But that takes us down the harmful effects route again, and for this discussion, that's irrelevent. Again, everything has harmful side effects. More people are killed in auto accidents than anything else, guns are a tool used in mass murder around the wrold, I can think of many things that are legal that are far, far more dangerous than marijuana.
 
I can appreciate where you guys come from as far as not wanting pot / cigarettes / drugs in general legalized. I think that people look at as if we're making conscious effort to pursue the laglity of a substance, or justify that substance. I think it's backwards from that logic-I think that the conscious effort is keeping it illegal. Legality is neutral-it's not condemnation nor approval, rather it's simply saying it's there, and we're n ot going to fill up our jails and create fines for it. Enter at your own risk.
 
And this is a multi-textural issue that can't be summed up in just a few paragraphs. We could go round and round all day regarding health effects, economic effects, effects of creating criminal records for people that did something that, in general, did nothing to endanger society.
 
Obviously breaking the law is wrong, and I'm not condoning it, but that doesn't make the law just or right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote little devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2010 at 1:41am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by little devil little devil wrote:

It`s a multi million dollar operation with ALL profits going nowhere but into ``criminals`` hands. Pot being illegal only helps organized crime, its a darn cash cow.


So... you blame the government instead of the people who buy and use the illegal substance?
.


I`m just pointing out a fact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2010 at 1:56am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by little devil little devil wrote:

It`s a multi million dollar operation with ALL profits going nowhere but into ``criminals`` hands. Pot being illegal only helps organized crime, its a darn cash cow.


So... you blame the government instead of the people who buy and use the illegal substance?

If no one used the drug, no money would go to the cartels. Problem solved. But instead people believe they have the right to do what they want, when they want, consequences be damned, then blame the government when things go wrong.



Like I said earlier, this country lacks personal responsibility.
So...what are your views on the era of alcohol prohibition?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2010 at 2:01am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by little devil little devil wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

[QUOTE=choopie911]
Smoke as much as you want,  don't expect healthcare.

I`m fine with that, but give me back my money that`s going towards healthcare. Then maybe I could get a pack for 3.50 rather than 10+ 


What about those around you that are harmed by your smoking? Why shouldnt that healthcare money go to them? You're harming them, they aren't harming themselves.



You do realize that the whole secondhand smoke kills stuff is complete crap right? 
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