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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:42pm
It doesn't matter if it is a choice or not.  (by the way, it isn't)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

It doesn't matter if it is a choice or not.  (by the way, it isn't)
IMO it actually does in a legal sense when it comes to special accomodations. If it is a choice, no accomodations should be made legally. If it isn't, than one can argue that special accomodations should be made.
 
And glad you are so certain as to whether it's a choice. Link?


Edited by oldpbnoob - 14 October 2010 at 3:47pm
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I fail to see how it really matters if someone chose to be gay. I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone would*, but for the sake of argument, even if they did, what does it matter? If they're not harassing anyone, why should they not be allowed to serve openly?

*again, save for attention whores.
Exactly. And my point regarding choice was in response to the post regarding "why are we giving them special treatment". My whole point was in saying that if homosexuality is a choice, why should it be given any more special treatment than someone who is a racist?  Because I choose to be gay, why should special accomodations be made for me? If I was racist, none would be.
 
Again, not saying homosexuality is exclusively a choice, simply saying that is viewed by many to be, and thus you can understand them questioning any special treatment.
One potential reason, racism can effect whether people live or die. If you hate black people, you're not really going to give a crap about some of the guys around you, and that could cost lives. Just throwing ideas out though.
And if someone has a problem with homosexuals you don't think it would as well? Again, doesn't DADT address this well? Wouldn't it actually be in the best interest of homosexuals in regards to safety?
They're not required to tell their sexual orientation. If it's important to them, they can make it known, if they're fearful of discrimination, they don't have to. All we are pushing for is the right to admit who they are without fear of getting kicked out. That's it.
"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I fail to see how it really matters if someone chose to be gay. I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone would*, but for the sake of argument, even if they did, what does it matter? If they're not harassing anyone, why should they not be allowed to serve openly?

*again, save for attention whores.
Exactly. And my point regarding choice was in response to the post regarding "why are we giving them special treatment". My whole point was in saying that if homosexuality is a choice, why should it be given any more special treatment than someone who is a racist?  Because I choose to be gay, why should special accomodations be made for me? If I was racist, none would be.
 
Again, not saying homosexuality is exclusively a choice, simply saying that is viewed by many to be, and thus you can understand them questioning any special treatment.
One potential reason, racism can effect whether people live or die. If you hate black people, you're not really going to give a crap about some of the guys around you, and that could cost lives. Just throwing ideas out though.
And if someone has a problem with homosexuals you don't think it would as well? Again, doesn't DADT address this well? Wouldn't it actually be in the best interest of homosexuals in regards to safety?
They're not required to tell their sexual orientation. If it's important to them, they can make it known, if they're fearful of discrimination, they don't have to. All we are pushing for is the right to admit who they are without fear of getting kicked out. That's it.
One might argue that they should have to make it known. When it comes to living arrangements, shouldn't you know who you're showering with? Again, not that all homosexuals are deviants, but as a straight male, wouldn't my right to privacy be as important as theirs?

Edited by oldpbnoob - 14 October 2010 at 3:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I fail to see how it really matters if someone chose to be gay. I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone would*, but for the sake of argument, even if they did, what does it matter? If they're not harassing anyone, why should they not be allowed to serve openly?

*again, save for attention whores.
Exactly. And my point regarding choice was in response to the post regarding "why are we giving them special treatment". My whole point was in saying that if homosexuality is a choice, why should it be given any more special treatment than someone who is a racist?  Because I choose to be gay, why should special accomodations be made for me? If I was racist, none would be.
 
Again, not saying homosexuality is exclusively a choice, simply saying that is viewed by many to be, and thus you can understand them questioning any special treatment.
One potential reason, racism can effect whether people live or die. If you hate black people, you're not really going to give a crap about some of the guys around you, and that could cost lives. Just throwing ideas out though.
And if someone has a problem with homosexuals you don't think it would as well? Again, doesn't DADT address this well? Wouldn't it actually be in the best interest of homosexuals in regards to safety?
They're not required to tell their sexual orientation. If it's important to them, they can make it known, if they're fearful of discrimination, they don't have to. All we are pushing for is the right to admit who they are without fear of getting kicked out. That's it.
One might argue that they should have to make it known. When it comes to living arrangements, shouldn't you know who you're showering with? Again, not that all homosexuals are deviants, but as a straight male, wouldn't my right to privacy be as important as theirs?
If something happens, or you feel uncomfortable, file a complaint. Soldiers have to shower with other gay soldiers as it is with DADT, whats the differance?
"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

It doesn't matter if it is a choice or not.  (by the way, it isn't)
IMO it actually does in a legal sense when it comes to special accomodations. If it is a choice, no accomodations should be made legally. If it isn't, than one can argue that special accomodations should be made.
 
And glad you are so certain as to whether it's a choice. Link?

I've done my research, you can do yours, or keep playing ignorant, your choice.  I will pose this question though:  If homosexuality is a choice, then why doesn't aversion therapy work to change it?  And another, did you choose to be straight?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 4:04pm
The difference is that it suddenly makes them gay for showering with a gay man.

I really don't understand your position, pbnoob. It seems pretty clear that while you don't hate homosexuals, you're not completely comfortable with homosexuality. Are you simply debating this because nobody else will or do you believe all the talking points you've brought up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snipa69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 4:29pm
I think the issue needs to be addressed from the root problem=Stereotypes. Everyone here who has brought up the idea that having openly gay members of the military means you will have a onslaught of the flamboyant types from w=West Hollywood. That is generally not the case when you have men and women signing up for the armed forces. I have served with gay members of the military (found out after they were discharged from service) and you would not have been able to tell them apart from a strait person. We are also making the harsh assumption that all gay people want to have sex with everyone be them strait or gay. This is also not generally the case. While there are gay people out there who may try and hit on strait people even after being told they are not gay, this is generally not the caliber of person you will find serving in the US Military. Having started my service as a Special Forces Operator in the USMC and transfered into the SpecOps community of the USAF I can tell you that it DOES make a difference as to what branch that person also chooses to join. The USMC has a strict command policy and expectations of how to conduct ones self as a member of the United States Marine Corps. The Air Force has always been a bit more lenient on command procedures depending on what your specific MOS is. As I continue on my career path in the Special Forces Community working mostly in part with the United States Army, I still conduct myself with a high level of discipline and authority. If I were to be an admin or say a crew chief, this would most likely be different. Not to say any one branch of the United States Military is more difficult, I have witnessed every day an enlisted person addressing his or her CO by first name; no rank mentioned. 

The Military has its way of breaking down EVERYONE who completes any portion of boot camp/basic training or OCS to follow a strict set of rules and codes under the UCMJ. The enforcement of these codes will still be upheld to the highest level by those tasked to do so. This means that any service member who assaults or harasses another will be charged accordingly. That goes for both verbal and physical assault. 

However I have made this argument before and I'll make it again. I DO NOT support this repeal because it puts those who decide to be open about it in danger even during boot camp because you have those in the service who want NOTHING to do with openly gay members. The reality is that if a Drill Instructor does not deem a candidate fit they will drop them either by approval from the chain of command or by a training accident. It happens and there is no hiding from the reality of it. You will also now have more service members assuming certain members are gay and attacking them with no evidence; not like if they had any it would be justified but it makes people paranoid. 

Communal showers would continue to take place. Segregating the Military goes against the directive put in place my Truman even if it was done for safety and comfort reasons. Separating shower time and such WOULD be giving "special rights" to gays and that just doesn't fly in the military be you gay or strait. You all conduct yourself by the same code and guidelines and anyone who tries to be a black sheep suffers. 


Edited by Snipa69 - 14 October 2010 at 4:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

The difference is that it suddenly makes them gay for showering with a gay man.

I really don't understand your position, pbnoob. It seems pretty clear that while you don't hate homosexuals, you're not completely comfortable with homosexuality. Are you simply debating this because nobody else will or do you believe all the talking points you've brought up?
My point is this. You are born a man or a woman. Special accomodations are made for men and women to be able to function within the military in order to co habitate with minimal issues. It's clear cut, you have a birth certificate that states what you are. You don't make a choice as to be a man, woman, black, white etc. No one complains that we have to have seperate showers/dressing rooms toilets etc because there is a legal definition of what a man and woman are and it can be defined. You cannot discriminate against either as it is what you are.
 
One would argue that being a racist is a choice. You choose to hate people of a certain race, religion, sexual orientation etc. This is not an inalienable right to be a racist and thus one would not expect special accomodations to be made for a racist so that they did not have to live, sleep, work etc with people that they do not consider desireable. People would scream and yell and holler is such accomodations were made.
 
What I am saying is a lot of people feel the same way in regards to homosexuality. They feel it is a choice, not something you are born with. This is the reason that people don't feel special privileges should be given to homosexuals if they choose to be gay and in the military. While I may not necessarily agree, I can understand their feelings on the subject. Some would liken it to a mental issue or disease that instead of being embraced and concessions made for, it should be excluded much as the choice to be openly racist would. Yes, in most cases I would say that homosexuality is not a choice, but not always. I beleive in some or even many cases, environment has something to do with it. Whether it's a conscious choice or not, it is in many ways a choice.
 
Conversely, if you argue that homosexuality is not a choice, you could do the same for racism. Again, just as an example. If you are indoctrinated into a culture of hate at an early age, and never truly taught anything else, you can unwillingly become racist. Did you have a choice? Hard to say if something becomes so ingrained in the fiber of your being. If you had no choice, should you openly be able to express your beliefs while in the military? Most would still argue no. If this is the case, why should there be a double standard?
 
This is why I am saying that homosexuality has to have a legal standing. If the legal system acknowledges it as a legal status, it can be addressed, accomodated and the problems worked out within the military just as it is between men and women. Again, I am not against homosexuality, just the ambiguousness of the legal status as to whether it is a choice or gender.  I feel it's the same basic problem with many of the issues surrounding homosexuals. They need a legal gender such as Gay or Lesbian. I feel if they had a legal gender, there would be less descrimination against them.
 
My comments regarding DADT support this. Until they have a legal gender, I feel it is unfair to homosexuals, and to a certain extent, those around them to repeal it. Until it is legally decided whether it is a lifestyle choice or a birthright, it will continued to be treated as an illness, disease or mental defect.
 
As for my comfort with homosexuality, I could care less where anyone wants to stick what, as long as they aren't sticking it in mine.  My wife used to work in the travel industry and we have had many gay and lesbian friends over the years. In fact, we still have Christmas Eve dinner every year with my wife, kids and a friend of ours that we affectionately call Aunt Ken. Would I feel comfortable taking a shower with a gay man? At my age, I really could care less. If I'm what gay men are into these days, God help them. I might actually find it a little flattering.
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 4:51pm
OPBN, your entire argument is "could"s and "if"s.  You have not made a single concrete statement regarding the issue.  All this "if __ you could argue__" is nonsense.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

OPBN, your entire argument is "could"s and "if"s.  You have not made a single concrete statement regarding the issue.  All this "if __ you could argue__" is nonsense.  
 I think there are few black and white issues on this subject. If you would care to add something rather than just pick at me, perhaps you should.  
 
Originally posted by Whale Whale wrote:

Shhh.

The adults are talking about grown-up things.



Edited by oldpbnoob - 14 October 2010 at 5:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 5:08pm
What special privileges are needed?

Why do we need separate showers and bunks for gay men as opposed to straight men or women.? They are still men or women...

I also like you comparing being gay to choosing to be racist.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 5:11pm
I already talked about the living situation and it being a non issue.  Perhaps you missed it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

What special privileges are needed?

Why do we need separate showers and bunks for gay men as opposed to straight men or women.? They are still men or women...
Never been in the military, do men and women shower together these days? If so, I was unaware of this. Why would you not afford the same rights/courtesy to gays/lesbians?  

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

I also like you comparing being gay to choosing to be racist.
Again, only in the context of the "choice" argument.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

I already talked about the living situation and it being a non issue.  Perhaps you missed it?
I think there is more to it than just the sleeping situation.  I wasn't suggesting new barracks and such be built. When I say accomodations, I am talking about concessions such as seperate dressing quarters, showers, etc. not actual buildings.

Edited by oldpbnoob - 14 October 2010 at 5:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

What special privileges are needed?

Why do we need separate showers and bunks for gay men as opposed to straight men or women.? They are still men or women...
Never been in the military, do men and women shower together these days? If so, I was unaware of this. Why would you not afford the same rights/courtesy to gays/lesbians?  

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

I also like you comparing being gay to choosing to be racist.
Again, only in the context of the "choice" argument.
 


Men and women do not shower together as far as I know. A gay man is a MAN. A gay woman is a WOMAN....

Context of the choice argument? So some people believe being attracted to someone of the same gender is a choice so let's just go with that instead of the people who have said it is not a choice.

Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

I already talked about the living situation and it being a non issue.  Perhaps you missed it?


Yes I did miss it in fact.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

It doesn't matter if it is a choice or not.  (by the way, it isn't)
IMO it actually does in a legal sense when it comes to special accomodations. If it is a choice, no accomodations should be made legally. If it isn't, than one can argue that special accomodations should be made.
 
And glad you are so certain as to whether it's a choice. Link?

I've done my research, you can do yours, or keep playing ignorant, your choice.  I will pose this question though:  If homosexuality is a choice, then why doesn't aversion therapy work to change it?  And another, did you choose to be straight?  


Translation of post directly above:  I don't have proof, it's just what I believe.* 

(Granted, I believe I have read stuff that indicates it might not be a choice, but when one makes an assertion in a discussion and that assertion is challenged it is better to provide the proof of that assertion as opposed to something equivalent of "because I said so."

*I'm kind of having FE flashbacks here.  (Especially when you include the indirect name-calling; done in a manner that allows room for denial later.)


Edited by Mack - 14 October 2010 at 5:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 5:39pm
I thunk the old noob has done a pretty good job summarising the issues as he sees them. If you have an issue with one or more of the points raised then maybe you should address it directly.

I see it as the  military as an official organisation wont have a problem with you being a homosexual as long as you conduct yourself appropriately. However being realistic there is a large opportunity for discrimination and persecution by individuals inside the military spanning the ranks. To repeal it would legally open up the military to liability for these individuals actions which will be many. it's a can of worms. As it stands DADT is a good way of nipping this in the bud. By not mentioning your sexual orientation you may serve. But if you get the old jazz hands out and decide you want everyone to know your gay then you will be removed. You have in essence become a liability.

To be honest DADT pretty much applies to being a racist. If you hold these views but keep them to yourself and work with the collegues your given regardless of race and repect the rank of any soldier you wont have a problem. If you start mouthing off about black people and the like you'll get thrown out on your ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:


I've done my research, you can do yours,
I'm good, thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Science has also sort of explained that it is indeed a thing that is not chosen, specifically through examples of other animals that exhibit homosexual behavior. 



Not true. You're telling me you've never met someone, say a woman, who after being raped by a guy chose to just date girls as they cant trust men? I have.

There ARE people that choose. Now, not saying it's any significant portion, but you can't deny it. So to say it doesn't happen is silly.




Now, here's a devils advocate point that I know will piss some of you off:

Who's to say homosexuality isn't a mental illness caused from malformation of the brain during gestation, or a disconnect between brain / body during fetal development?


(And let the 'homophobe' accusations commence)

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