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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

^^^^ Why is sexual orientation any less/more important than extreme racial/political views? Again, if it can be determined to be a choice, why should either be allowed in the military?

Choose to be gay,  right now, try it.

Post results.
 Sure, as soon as you choose to be a racist.  Nature or nuture? I'm not arguing either way, I am simply saying at this point, it isn't that cut and dry.

Edited by oldpbnoob - 14 October 2010 at 2:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 2:21pm
Being gay =/= Being racist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Excuse my ignorance as far as living conditions/accomodations in the military service as I never served, but isn't part of the issue having to deal with potential sexual harassment incidents? I am not claiming or insinuating that homosexuals are predatory, but doesn't allowing them to be openly gay without seperating them as far as living arrangements open up a can of worms? I mean obviously it happens, but if it is allowed to be open, will other arrangements have to be made? Will they have a his,hers, and somewhere in-between shower time? It just seems that it would make for some very awkward possibilites. Wouldn't it be akin to having men and women use communal bathrooms? At this point, with the current regulations, things happen. With an open policy, does this open a door that doesn't need to be?  
 
Not trying to be homophobic, because I really am not, just asking. I admire anyone that commits their life to protecting our country regardless of their sexual orientation.  

BEQ is mixed gendered already.  It is basically like a dorm.  I'm not sure how they would work the whole room mate bit, but they wouldn't need to build new barracks or anything like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Being gay =/= Being racist.
Quite true, but not the point. But many would argue that one is no more a lifestyle choice than the other.  

Edited by oldpbnoob - 14 October 2010 at 2:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

^^^^ Why is sexual orientation any less/more important than extreme racial/political views? Again, if it can be determined to be a choice, why should either be allowed in the military?



You missed my entire point, so let me reiterate:

Because it doesn't affect their jobs (unlike extreme racial or political views).  Gays and lesbians aren't kicked out because they're unable to perform, they're kicked out because people are grossed out.  That's stupid.

Also, being homosexual tends to be very difficult, especially for those brought up in a religious environment.  I seriously doubt people are doing it for kicks (although I'm not discounting the people who go homo-/bi-/whatetever for shock value, as a I knew a girl like that in high school).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

^^^^ Why is sexual orientation any less/more important than extreme racial/political views? Again, if it can be determined to be a choice, why should either be allowed in the military?



You missed my entire point, so let me reiterate:

Because it doesn't affect their jobs (unlike extreme racial or political views).  Gays and lesbians aren't kicked out because they're unable to perform, they're kicked out because people are grossed out.  That's stupid.

Also, being homosexual tends to be very difficult, especially for those brought up in a religious environment.  I seriously doubt people are doing it for kicks (although I'm not discounting the people who go homo-/bi-/whatetever for shock value, as a I knew a girl like that in high school).
Excepting that some people would no more want to be in a situation where they had to cohabitate with some dude that keeps checking them out in the shower any more than they would some guy that keeps calling them the N word. Couldn't one argue that both are unacceptable? Also, keep in mind that the racist can keep his racism hidden just as much as a homosexual can hide his orientation. If the homosexual is allowed to openly express his gayness, why can't a racist now openly exclaim his dislike of other races?

Edited by oldpbnoob - 14 October 2010 at 2:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

If the homosexual is allowed to openly express his gayness, why can't a racist now openly exclaim his dislike of other races?

You are assuming that an admission of homosexuality is akin to expressing one's desire for a specific sex. It's not correct to say that "I'm gay" is analogous to acting on homosexual desires or flaunting it in the presence of other people.

But, even if I'm incorrect in saying that, expressing homosexuality only entails expressing a sexual preference. Openly expressing one's racist attitude is openly expressing a disposition to hate an entire group of people and the prejudice associated with that hate, and is almost always an aggressive expression that usually elicits a response from someone in the group being hated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:03pm
Pretty much just reiterating Gatyr's comment there, racist people hate the entire race, hence the name. I'm straight, and I don't want to bang every girl I ever see, not by a looooooong ways. What makes you think gay men want to bang every guy they ever see? The two really are not comparable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:05pm
Science has also sort of explained that it is indeed a thing that is not chosen, specifically through examples of other animals that exhibit homosexual behavior. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

If the homosexual is allowed to openly express his gayness, why can't a racist now openly exclaim his dislike of other races?

You are assuming that an admission of homosexuality is akin to expressing one's desire for a specific sex. It's not correct to say that "I'm gay" is analogous to acting on homosexual desires or flaunting it in the presence of other people.

But, even if I'm incorrect in saying that, expressing homosexuality only entails expressing a sexual preference. Openly expressing one's racist attitude is openly expressing a disposition to hate an entire group of people and the prejudice associated with that hate, and is almost always an aggressive expression that usually elicits a response from someone in the group being hated.
Not all racists are agressive just as all homosexuals are do not wear thongs and chaps in gay pride parades. If a racist calmly and openly makes his racism known, why is it any more offensive to those offended than a homosexual explaining how they prefer to have sex with their own kind? Why is one any more offensive to the offended person then the other? Why is discrimination towards either person acceptable? If I declare that I dislike a certain group of people, and people discriminate against me, isn't it the same as people discriminating against me because I tell them I am gay? And again, if one argues that you don't choose to be gay, can't one argue that you don't choose to be a racist? Or a Christian? Or an Athiest?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:13pm
Just like racist harassment is no bueno for racists, sexual harassment would be no bueno for gays just like it is for everyone else.  Moving on.

Edited by GroupB - 14 October 2010 at 3:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:23pm
I fail to see how it really matters if someone chose to be gay. I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone would*, but for the sake of argument, even if they did, what does it matter? If they're not harassing anyone, why should they not be allowed to serve openly?

*again, save for attention whores.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Science has also sort of explained that it is indeed a thing that is not chosen, specifically through examples of other animals that exhibit homosexual behavior. 
And I am not saying that it is either way. I don't beleive there are any clear cut answers as much as I don't beleive there are any clear cut answers in whether someone is a racist, or an athiest, or afraid of the dark. What I am saying is, there is not that I am aware of a legal decision on whether homosexuality is a mental disorder, choice, birthright etc.  I do beleive that some people are wired differently. I also believe that through life experience, trauma etc that ones sexual orientation, racial views, political views etc can be affected. So if this is the case, is homosexuality a disease or medical condition?  I am not saying that it is, just playing devils advocate. I have known some people in my life that honestly, would pretty much hump anything. Girls, guys, farm animals etc. If it walked, crawled or flew, they were willing to nail it. And honestly, I think a lot of people walk this line. I think the tendancy is more prevelant than people want to admit.
 
And ot answer Sneaky, I never said that homosexuals want to have sex with every dude they meet. Nor did I say heteros do. As far as racism, not necessarily true. It's actually quite common for someone to have a particular dislike for a certain segment of the population be it black, white, asian, hispanic, gay, jewish etc. And obviously, I am using racist as an example, not as an exclusive activity that can be argued as a choice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I fail to see how it really matters if someone chose to be gay. I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone would*, but for the sake of argument, even if they did, what does it matter? If they're not harassing anyone, why should they not be allowed to serve openly?

*again, save for attention whores.
Exactly. And my point regarding choice was in response to the post regarding "why are we giving them special treatment". My whole point was in saying that if homosexuality is a choice, why should it be given any more special treatment than someone who is a racist?  Because I choose to be gay, why should special accomodations be made for me? If I was racist, none would be.
 
Again, not saying homosexuality is exclusively a choice, simply saying that is viewed by many to be, and thus you can understand them questioning any special treatment.


Edited by oldpbnoob - 14 October 2010 at 3:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

Just like racist harassment is no bueno for racists, sexual harassment would be no bueno for gays just like it is for everyone else.  Moving on.
And doesnt DADT solve this issue? How would repealing it help?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I fail to see how it really matters if someone chose to be gay. I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone would*, but for the sake of argument, even if they did, what does it matter? If they're not harassing anyone, why should they not be allowed to serve openly?

*again, save for attention whores.
Exactly. And my point regarding choice was in response to the post regarding "why are we giving them special treatment". My whole point was in saying that if homosexuality is a choice, why should it be given any more special treatment than someone who is a racist?  Because I choose to be gay, why should special accomodations be made for me? If I was racist, none would be.
 
Again, not saying homosexuality is exclusively a choice, simply saying that is viewed by many to be, and thus you can understand them questioning any special treatment.
One potential reason, racism can effect whether people live or die. If you hate black people, you're not really going to give a crap about some of the guys around you, and that could cost lives. Just throwing ideas out though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:32pm
Yeah, I'm gonna stick with the "not a choice" crowd on this one.

I'm pretty sure if it was a choice, a whole lotta gay people would have gone straight at this point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I fail to see how it really matters if someone chose to be gay. I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone would*, but for the sake of argument, even if they did, what does it matter? If they're not harassing anyone, why should they not be allowed to serve openly?

*again, save for attention whores.
Exactly. And my point regarding choice was in response to the post regarding "why are we giving them special treatment". My whole point was in saying that if homosexuality is a choice, why should it be given any more special treatment than someone who is a racist?  Because I choose to be gay, why should special accomodations be made for me? If I was racist, none would be.
 
Again, not saying homosexuality is exclusively a choice, simply saying that is viewed by many to be, and thus you can understand them questioning any special treatment.
One potential reason, racism can effect whether people live or die. If you hate black people, you're not really going to give a crap about some of the guys around you, and that could cost lives. Just throwing ideas out though.
And if someone has a problem with homosexuals you don't think it would as well? Again, doesn't DADT address this well? Wouldn't it actually be in the best interest of homosexuals in regards to safety?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

Just like racist harassment is no bueno for racists, sexual harassment would be no bueno for gays just like it is for everyone else.  Moving on.
And doesnt DADT solve this issue? How would repealing it help?

Are you serious?  Denying the rights of many to deal with the problem few is never a solution.  Besides, DADT doesn't solve the sexual harassment issue, which is why it still exists.


Edited by GroupB - 14 October 2010 at 3:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2010 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Yeah, I'm gonna stick with the "not a choice" crowd on this one.

I'm pretty sure if it was a choice, a whole lotta gay people would have gone straight at this point.
And again, it might well not be in most situations, but if you can't rule it out and there is no legal basis........? Honestly, in my life I have known people that pretty much could have gone either way. In one case, I know a woman that left her husband for a woman, but is now married to another man. Is she genetically gay, or confused? Is it a choice?
 
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