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Milsim 98 Custom

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    Posted: 02 September 2010 at 1:42am
noob here cuz i can't find help anywhere and then it hit me...i'm not on tippmann forums! so heres the deal: i recently picked up a brand new-used Tippmann 98 Custom Pro A.C.T. (guy used it maybe 5 times lightly over just a few months!) already came with a rocket cock, double trigger, remote line and a proto barrel plus i already had a few HPA tanks from my last 98 (good old tRUSTy lol). now for the part where i need help. I want to make it look like a M4/M16 rifle without breaking the bank (don't tell me, i already know, its gonna be tough. Pinch)  so for starters i've already ordered a Tapco folding stock because everyone has a Car-15/miscellaneous brand collapsible stock plus it will be nice to either have the added support or swing it out of the way for better maneuverability. so far for now i just want to get a barrel and sight rail but would like opinions on a under barrel hand grip and magazine (not an expansion chamber one cuz i switch between HPA and CO2 depending on how long the game is gonna be.) so far i'm looking at a BT adjustable sight rail and a BT-16 barrel. my main concern is performance on the barrel cuz a M16 look-alike runs $35-150! of course any fool could tell that one of the more expensive barrels would be better but i'm a college kid on a budget Ouch. ok thats it. sorry for it being so long. any help would be awesome!Thumbs Up
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Sell the set up you have and buy a Project Salvo or Alpha Black with an E-grip. Has the looks you are wanting out of the box.
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^^^ That.

Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:

noob here cuz i can't find help anywhere and then it hit me...i'm not on tippmann forums! so heres the deal: i recently picked up a brand new-used Tippmann 98 Custom Pro A.C.T. (guy used it maybe 5 times lightly over just a few months!) already came with a rocket cock, double trigger,

I've never seen an M4/M16 with a double trigger so I'm going to work off the assumption that you aren't going for an exact replica.  (Which is good--more on this later.)

remote line and a proto barrel plus i already had a few HPA tanks from my last 98 (good old tRUSTy lol). now for the part where i need help. I want to make it look like a M4/M16 rifle without breaking the bank (don't tell me, i already know, its gonna be tough. Pinch

As long as you understand it will never look that much like an M4/M16 because the basic body shape of the 98 series just doesn't lend itself to this type of mod.  (Which is why it is good that you aren't going for an exact replica.)

so for starters i've already ordered a Tapco folding stock

M16/M4s do not come with folding stocks; I am beginning to get the idea that you want a mil-sim marker but are not as set on making it look like an M4/M16 as you might think you are.

because everyone has a Car-15/miscellaneous brand collapsible stock plus it will be nice to either have the added support or swing it out of the way for better maneuverability.

I agree here, I much prefer folding stocks to collapsible stocks.

 so far for now i just want to get a barrel and sight rail

You really are probably not going to find these within the price range you desire, at least not new.  You could try looking for one of the kits Armson used to make which included a (smooth-bore) barrel, M4-style front shroud and front sight.  At one time you could pick these up fairly inexpensively because the barrel had a reputation for breaking paint.  This turned out to be due (at least in my case) to rough edges around the "flash suppressor" porting at the business end of the barrel.  A little careful work with a Dremel made the breakage issue go away and the barrel itself, being an Armson, was quite accurate.  I finally got rid of the set-up just because it didn't look enough like an M4 to be.  (Because of the 98 series body it was based on.)

but would like opinions on a under barrel hand grip and magazine

The desire for a handgrip means that you need a front shroud with a rail system; this is something the Armson kits didn't have.  It also means that you are definitely looking at the more expensive kits.  (This would be a reason to consider a Project Salvo instead of a 98.  Additionally, I have yet to see an M4/M16 magazine kit that works/looks good with the 98 series body.

(not an expansion chamber one cuz i switch between HPA and CO2 depending on how long the game is gonna be.)

I would recommend just running one or the other.  That way you don't have to rechrono when switching propellant types.  Additionally, most expansion chambers will not interfere with compressed air delivery.

so far i'm looking at a BT adjustable sight rail and a BT-16 barrel.

Unless they've redesigned them, the BT rails are not proportioned the same as an actual M16 site rail.  (They are shorter and, in my opinion, just don't look right.)  Keep in mind however that anything is better than a CRap4 product.

my main concern is performance on the barrel cuz a M16 look-alike runs $35-150! of course any fool could tell that one of the more expensive barrels would be better

Expensive does not necessarily equate to better performance.

but i'm a college kid on a budget Ouch. ok thats it. sorry for it being so long. any help would be awesome!Thumbs Up

The products you've mentioned do not generally support a mod that will produce a replica M4/M16.  My suggestion would be to step back from the project for a bit and determine what it is you really want to end up with.  (I.e. do you want a realistic looking mil-sim marker or just something that is cool and kind of military looking.)  Once you do this, update the post and with the updated information we can probably provide better assistance here.
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Mack must have time on his hands today LOL.

As an addendum, Armson products are still made: http://www.proteamdirect.com/model98.html
 
Unless you picked the 98 up for next to nothing, you are going to spend more money trying to make it look like a 1/2 assed attempt at an M4/M16 than you would on an AB/PS out of the box with an E-grip.
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i've seen plenty of m98 m16s with double triggers/fang triggers it doesn't effect looks at all, there are plenty of other things that give it away as not real more than the double trigger, plus it was already on the gun when i bought it and i like the feel of it. i did get my current 98 for next to nothing. no i'm not looking for an exact replica, the few "exact" replicas i've seen are over the top and just look dumb anyway. the 98 is just fine for making it into a M16 i see them all the time. I don't want an Alpha Black because then i'm stuck with just that style and i don't know anyone who has one and what they think of it. a Project Salvo looks nothing like an M16, looks more like an old machine gun than an assault rifle. E-Grip is too expensive and isn't worth the money if i don't get a cyclone or force feed which i'm not going to do plus if i ever set it up for bottom feed with a mag an e-grip will be worthless. i know that a folding stock isn't necessarily stock M16 (i've seen a few here and there) but everyone has a collapsible stock and i don't like how they look or feel.  just need a few opinions on different m16-look-alike barrels and sights
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Good luck setting up the 98 for a bottom feed. I have yet to see it done well.

 
You seem to have a handle on what you want to do, best of luck with it.
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Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:

i've seen plenty of m98 m16s with double triggers/fang triggers

I'm assuming you mean you've seen plenty of modified paintball markers that look like M16/M4s with double triggers

it doesn't effect looks at all,

That would be a matter of opinion.  If I was going to mil-sim up a marker I would be bothered by it because if if doesn't look real there is really no point (for me) to put any mil-sim stuff on it.

there are plenty of other things that give it away as not real more than the double trigger, plus it was already on the gun when i bought it and i like the feel of it. i did get my current 98 for next to nothing. no i'm not looking for an exact replica, the few "exact" replicas i've seen are over the top and just look dumb

Again, a matter of opinion.  While I am not a big fan of mil-sim markers (at least for looks reasons) I think the one's that look like the real things are much cooler than the ones that look like someone bought a few of the cheapest parts they could find and stuck them on the marker randomly.

anyway. the 98 is just fine for making it into a M16 i see them all the time.

As do I.  But, being a purist, and having carried one for years, I am bothered by the extra room between the trigger and front shroud.  (On a real M16/M4 there is just enough room for the magazine in between these points; on the 98 based mil-sim markers there is quite a bit of extra room.  The fact the Alpha Black and Salvo are based of 98 internals is why they have the extra space there as well.  But, at least they made it more aesthetically pleasing on these.)

I don't want an Alpha Black because then i'm stuck with just that style

Good point.  While they are (in my opinion) the best looking of the M16/M4 mil-sim markers they do not have the adaptability of most other Tippmanns for different looks.

and i don't know anyone who has one and what they think of it.

They have gotten very good reviews.  After all, they are essentially basic 98 internals in a different body.  (I believe there are some differences in the trigger group but other than that the parts are interchangeable.)

a Project Salvo looks nothing like an M16, looks more like an old machine gun than an assault rifle.

Actually it looks like an M4 with the optional rail interface system that is used by certain special forces.

E-Grip is too expensive and isn't worth the money if i don't get a cyclone or force feed which i'm not going to do plus if i ever set it up for bottom feed with a mag

Very curious on how you plan on doing this.

an e-grip will be worthless. i know that a folding stock isn't necessarily stock M16 (i've seen a few here and there)

Curious about this as well.  While you may have seen a folding stock on a mil-sim marker that was modeled after the M16/M4, on something airsoft related or even on a carbine that had similar looks, I doubt you ever say a folding stock on an actual M16/M4.  The buffer tube for the AR-based rifles extends back into the stock which renders them incapable of accepting a folding stock.  (There were rumors that HK was working on something for their 416 which would allow the stock to fold like the G36 stock, but one problem with that was using the G36 with the stock folded significantly reduces operational life of the weapon.)

but everyone has a collapsible stock and i don't like how they look or feel. 

Definitely agree there.  I much prefer the folding stocks.  With the one by JCS currently being my favorite.

just need a few opinions on different m16-look-alike barrels and sights

The bad news is that many of the barrels that come with the front shroud and sights are not much better than the stock barrel.  (The companies that sell them figure that since it is all about looks they can decrease the price by putting less work into the actual barrel.  Now, I'm not saying their necessarily bad, I'm just saying that there are many less expensive barrel options out there which will provide better performance.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tarrguy57 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:

i've seen plenty of m98 m16s with double triggers/fang triggers

I'm assuming you mean you've seen plenty of modified paintball markers that look like M16/M4s with double triggers

yes thats what m98 means: model 98

it doesn't effect looks at all,

That would be a matter of opinion.  If I was going to mil-sim up a marker I would be bothered by it because if if doesn't look real there is really no point (for me) to put any mil-sim stuff on it.

when you hold the gun you could barely tell the difference

there are plenty of other things that give it away as not real more than the double trigger, plus it was already on the gun when i bought it and i like the feel of it. i did get my current 98 for next to nothing. no i'm not looking for an exact replica, the few "exact" replicas i've seen are over the top and just look dumb

Again, a matter of opinion.  While I am not a big fan of mil-sim markers (at least for looks reasons) I think the one's that look like the real things are much cooler than the ones that look like someone bought a few of the cheapest parts they could find and stuck them on the marker randomly.

when i say there are other things that make it look less real than the double trigger would be the bottom line, hopper feed, hopper, giant ass cable running off the gun (unless of course you are using a small tank within the stock) and IMO a gun with a giant scope, sight rail, RIS rail, stock, mag, m16 barrel shroud, RIS rails on the shroud, folding hand grip on the shroud, flashlight, laser, front sight, grenade launcher, bipod, sling, do i need to go on? it just looks dumb cuz no soldier would ever had a gun look like that. and i'm not sticking stuff on it randomly and there is nothing wrong with cheap so long as it doesn't hinder performance

anyway. the 98 is just fine for making it into a M16 i see them all the time.

As do I.  But, being a purist, and having carried one for years, I am bothered by the extra room between the trigger and front shroud.  (On a real M16/M4 there is just enough room for the magazine in between these points; on the 98 based mil-sim markers there is quite a bit of extra room.  The fact the Alpha Black and Salvo are based of 98 internals is why they have the extra space there as well.  But, at least they made it more aesthetically pleasing on these.)

well i'm 6'3 long and gangly so the extra "space" is nice

I don't want an Alpha Black because then i'm stuck with just that style

Good point.  While they are (in my opinion) the best looking of the M16/M4 mil-sim markers they do not have the adaptability of most other Tippmanns for different looks.

and i don't know anyone who has one and what they think of it.

They have gotten very good reviews.  After all, they are essentially basic 98 internals in a different body.  (I believe there are some differences in the trigger group but other than that the parts are interchangeable.)

reviews and knowing someone with a valid opinion are completely different. majority of the reviews i've read (different tippmann sites,  plenty of pb forums, and amazon, i haven't heard one bad review, no gun is that good. people were consistently giving both PS and AB 5 stars maybe 4 based on price and shipping.) plus none of the shops near me will let me test the gun before i use it and they all have zero return policies on guns even if it was broken out of the box

a Project Salvo looks nothing like an M16, looks more like an old machine gun than an assault rifle.

Actually it looks like an M4 with the optional rail interface system that is used by certain special forces.

IMO it looks weird and wouldn't be comfortable to hold the shroud. 

E-Grip is too expensive and isn't worth the money if i don't get a cyclone or force feed which i'm not going to do plus if i ever set it up for bottom feed with a mag

Very curious on how you plan on doing this.

never seen it done? i'm not exactly sure how it works but it involves milling the bottom of the marker and using a spring loaded mag (generally holds 30 balls but i've heard of mags holding 60 as well) and if/when i get to this, an e-grip would be rendered useless except maybe for burst mode because in a milsim match you don't go in with pods (at least the few i've been to you don't, only 30 round mags) so you need to conserve and pick your shots. the basic premise of an E-grip is more paint in a smaller amount of time. that'd be great if i wanted to make maybe a SAW or some other machine gun (hopefully next project, either gotta make it myself or widen my budget)

an e-grip will be worthless. i know that a folding stock isn't necessarily stock M16 (i've seen a few here and there)

Curious about this as well.  While you may have seen a folding stock on a mil-sim marker that was modeled after the M16/M4, on something airsoft related or even on a carbine that had similar looks, I doubt you ever say a folding stock on an actual M16/M4.  The buffer tube for the AR-based rifles extends back into the stock which renders them incapable of accepting a folding stock.  (There were rumors that HK was working on something for their 416 which would allow the stock to fold like the G36 stock, but one problem with that was using the G36 with the stock folded significantly reduces operational life of the weapon.)

yes i know all that i was talking about markers, thats part of the reason i bought a folding stock because i've seen hundreds of people with collapsible stocks even if they aren't going the milsim route. i have seen max 5 people with folding stocks on milsim m98s

but everyone has a collapsible stock and i don't like how they look or feel. 

Definitely agree there.  I much prefer the folding stocks.  With the one by JCS currently being my favorite.

saw that but couldn't find one cheap enough. i saw a tapco and could actually find people who could give a decent review on it. plus i've used a tapco stock on a real AK-47 and found it very comfortable

just need a few opinions on different m16-look-alike barrels and sights

The bad news is that many of the barrels that come with the front shroud and sights are not much better than the stock barrel.  (The companies that sell them figure that since it is all about looks they can decrease the price by putting less work into the actual barrel.  Now, I'm not saying their necessarily bad, I'm just saying that there are many less expensive barrel options out there which will provide better performance.)

actually i've heard that most increase performance (not much, most say they don't notice much more than 10%) and i know that i could get a really nice performance most likely with better performance and accuracy than buying a M16-look-alike but i'm going the milsim route and that means sacrificing performance (right now, i know i can buy a much better one if i have the $$$ but i don't so thats my option) plus i've heard that alot of them can come apart and swap the barrel.

now what i'm curious about is how you have such an opinion on this yet from what i've read you're not really into milsim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 6:48pm
I suggest if your looking for a Tactical & Practical Approach to MILSIM that you hit Up Ebay or the Buy/Sell/Trade boards of PBN or other Forums where players who impulse buy mods go to dump them off on the market.

Best of Luck.
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Good to see the noob knows better than Mack who has been playing since Christ was in diapers. Wacko
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Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Good to see the noob knows better than Mack who has been playing since Christ was in diapers. Wacko

no reason to flame. i asked a question, he responded with his opinion, i didn't agree and replied why
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Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Good to see the noob knows better than Mack who has been playing since Christ was in diapers. Wacko

no reason to flame. i asked a question, he responded with his opinion, i didn't agree and replied why
His opinion is based on years and years of playing experience. If you have no intention of taking advice from forumers that have a clue... why even post in the first place? As I said, you seem to have it all figred out. Good luck with it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tarrguy57 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Good to see the noob knows better than Mack who has been playing since Christ was in diapers. Wacko

no reason to flame. i asked a question, he responded with his opinion, i didn't agree and replied why
His opinion is based on years and years of playing experience. If you have no intention of taking advice from forumers that have a clue... why even post in the first place? As I said, you seem to have it all figred out. Good luck with it. 
why even post if you're just going to bash what people have to say? he may have lots of experience but that still doesn't make his opinion right. i respect his opinion and have taken it into consideration and i don't agree but i appreciate that he has offered help. so thanks alot for the into mack it helped alotThumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:



<NOTE: Edited to save space>

yes thats what m98 means: model 98

Oops, missed that.

when you hold the gun you could barely tell the difference

I can, but as I said, I am a purist and did carry an M16 for years.  (Which is probably the reason the double trigger stands out so much for me.)

when i say there are other things that make it look less real than the double trigger would be the bottom line, hopper feed, hopper, giant ass cable running off the gun

I guess those don't bother me as much because they are part of the mechanics of paintball that we just have to put up with but the trigger is something that we don't have to do.

(unless of course you are using a small tank within the stock) and IMO a gun with a giant scope, sight rail, RIS rail, stock, mag, m16 barrel shroud, RIS rails on the shroud, folding hand grip on the shroud, flashlight, laser, front sight, grenade launcher, bipod, sling, do i need to go on? it just looks dumb cuz no soldier would ever had a gun look like that.

I agree 100% on that.  In fact, that was what I had in mind when I mentioned the random bolt-on stuff.

and i'm not sticking stuff on it randomly

Good.

and there is nothing wrong with cheap so long as it doesn't hinder performance

Won't argue that either.  What I will point out is there is a point where inexpensive hinders mil-sim to the point that many people no longer consider the mil-sim to be effective.

anyway. the 98 is just fine for making it into a M16 i see them all the time.

As do I.  But, being a purist, and having carried one for years, I am bothered by the extra room between the trigger and front shroud.  (On a real M16/M4 there is just enough room for the magazine in between these points; on the 98 based mil-sim markers there is quite a bit of extra room.  The fact the Alpha Black and Salvo are based of 98 internals is why they have the extra space there as well.  But, at least they made it more aesthetically pleasing on these.)

well i'm 6'3 long and gangly so the extra "space" is nice

At that height, you may have difficulty finding a stock that extends long enough to be comfortable.  Since the folding ones tend to be a bit longer than the collapsible ones you probably made a good choice. 

What I want to know, related to this, is why some after-market manufacturer just doesn't make a kit where the shroud fits back over the extra space (with a snap-on/screw on part) for the feed elbow) to disguise the extra room as part of the barrel/shroud.


reviews and knowing someone with a valid opinion are completely different. majority of the reviews i've read (different tippmann sites,  plenty of pb forums, and amazon, i haven't heard one bad review, no gun is that good. people were consistently giving both PS and AB 5 stars maybe 4 based on price and shipping.) plus none of the shops near me will let me test the gun before i use it and they all have zero return policies on guns even if it was broken out of the box

I know several people with them and none of them have anything bad to say at all.  I merely pointed out the Tippmann 98 internals fact to indicate they should be reliable.

IMO it looks weird and wouldn't be comfortable to hold the shroud.

They're not; you pretty much have to add a vertical grip to them.

E-Grip is too expensive and isn't worth the money if i don't get a cyclone or force feed which i'm not going to do plus if i ever set it up for bottom feed with a mag

Very curious on how you plan on doing this.

never seen it done?

I haven't.  There was someone on here a while back working on a drum feed but he quit posting.

i'm not exactly sure how it works but it involves milling the bottom of the marker and using a spring loaded mag

Got a link to one of these as an example?

(generally holds 30 balls but i've heard of mags holding 60 as well)

A link to this would be nice as well.  With the exception of the 100 round Q-Loader pods (which I don't think really fits the parameters of what we're discussing here) the largest magazine that I can think of which holds .68 caliber paintballs are the magazines for the RAP4 T-series markers.  (The .43 caliber mags hold 20.)  A 30 round magazine would be big and a 60 round one would be monstrous.

and if/when i get to this, an e-grip would be rendered useless except maybe for burst mode because in a milsim match you don't go in with pods (at least the few i've been to you don't, only 30 round mags)

Are there magazine fed Tippmanns at these events?

so you need to conserve and pick your shots. the basic premise of an E-grip is more paint in a smaller amount of time. that'd be great if i wanted to make maybe a SAW or some other machine gun (hopefully next project, either gotta make it myself or widen my budget)

Keep in mind that being the support gunner seriously increases your expenditures on paint.

an e-grip will be worthless. i know that a folding stock isn't necessarily stock M16 (i've seen a few here and there)

actually i've heard that most increase performance (not much, most say they don't notice much more than 10%) and i know that i could get a really nice performance most likely with better performance and accuracy than buying a M16-look-alike but i'm going the milsim route and that means sacrificing performance (right now, i know i can buy a much better one if i have the $$$ but i don't so thats my option) plus i've heard that alot of them can come apart and swap the barrel.

All of the ones I have experience with allow the barrel to be swapped out but there are some issues to be aware of:
  • Outer diameter of after-market barrel does not match diameter of barrel that came with foregrip/shroud kit.
    • Generally, the barrels from the M16/M4 kit have a larger outer diameter than most after-market barrels.  This is easy to deal with as a bit of electrical tape, a few o-rings or even some spacers (included in some kits) can be used for a tight fit.  I actually can not think of any cases where the kit barrel had too small an outer diameter.
    • If there is a diameter issue and the kit includes a front sight post it is a bit harder to hide the tape/o-ring modifications that might be necessary for a good fit.
  • The kits I have experience with use a set screw to attach the shrouds to the barrel.  This screw can damage the finish on after-market barrels and even effect the performance of thinner/cheaper barrels if overtightened.

now what i'm curious about is how you have such an opinion on this yet from what i've read you're not really into milsim.

I've been playing since '85.  While I am not into mil-sim now, I did go through a mil-sim phase (as well as several other phases which made this sport insanely expensive for me).  The Armson kit I mentioned elsewhere was what I used to make a 98 Custom into an M16.  While I no longer have the 98-based M16 modded marker I do still have a 98-based AK which I kept because I really liked how it felt/shot.


Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Good to see the noob knows better than Mack who has been playing since Christ was in diapers. Wacko


Christ was not, I repeat not, in diapers back then.*



*They didn't have diapers, they used swaddling cloths.


Edited by Mack - 02 September 2010 at 10:52pm
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Yeah, it's a double-post but I didn't want to include this in the previous.  Thank's oldpbnoob for jumping in on my behalf but I haven't been offended by anything here and am enjoying the discussion.  Plus, I'm hoping a link to a magazine fed Tippmann can be provided because I think that would be fascinating.

On a related note:

oldpbnoob, you should throw a link in here to the thread on that project you were working on a while back for the limited paint 98 set-up.  While it isn't strictly mil-sim, from the description of the rules/limitations that tarrguy57 sort of mentioned I think it probably meets the critera for the games he's involved in as far as ammo capacity.  (And it would be a simpler alternative than modding a magazine feed system.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tarrguy57 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:



<NOTE: Edited to save space>

Oops, missed that.

no problem

when you hold the gun you could barely tell the difference

I can, but as I said, I am a purist and did carry an M16 for years.  (Which is probably the reason the double trigger stands out so much for me.)

fair enough i figured you were and i appreciate your service.

when i say there are other things that make it look less real than the double trigger would be the bottom line, hopper feed, hopper, giant ass cable running off the gun

I guess those don't bother me as much because they are part of the mechanics of paintball that we just have to put up with but the trigger is something that we don't have to do.

(unless of course you are using a small tank within the stock) and IMO a gun with a giant scope, sight rail, RIS rail, stock, mag, m16 barrel shroud, RIS rails on the shroud, folding hand grip on the shroud, flashlight, laser, front sight, grenade launcher, bipod, sling, do i need to go on? it just looks dumb cuz no soldier would ever had a gun look like that.

I agree 100% on that.  In fact, that was what I had in mind when I mentioned the random bolt-on stuff.

exactly. a buddy of mine won some paintball contest thing at a local shop and won a free fully decked out A5 with anything he wanted, now granted if i had free reign to do whatever with no budget i'd attach whatever the hell could fit on the gun with the idea to remove most of it and save/sell it to do different setups

and i'm not sticking stuff on it randomly

Good.

and there is nothing wrong with cheap so long as it doesn't hinder performance

Won't argue that either.  What I will point out is there is a point where inexpensive hinders mil-sim to the point that many people no longer consider the mil-sim to be effective.

i am buying metal parts, no crappy plastic here

anyway. the 98 is just fine for making it into a M16 i see them all the time.

well i'm 6'3 long and gangly so the extra "space" is nice

At that height, you may have difficulty finding a stock that extends long enough to be comfortable.  Since the folding ones tend to be a bit longer than the collapsible ones you probably made a good choice. 

What I want to know, related to this, is why some after-market manufacturer just doesn't make a kit where the shroud fits back over the extra space (with a snap-on/screw on part) for the feed elbow) to disguise the extra room as part of the barrel/shroud.


i hope i did. i've tried a few different stocks and never felt at one with my gun using a collapsible but most folding ones felt really good, not perfect but better than a collapsible stock by far. issue is that most folding stocks are much more $$$ than c-stocks but i lucked out and found a Tapco for $30! hope i don't need to modify it to much to work with ACT cuz i've heard issues of having to drill extra holes. also about a kit that would fit back over the "extra space" of the gun between the end of the barrel shroud and the beginning of a magazine, there is only one kit that i know of that comes close to doing that is the tippmann 3 piece conversion kit to make your 98 look like an AK and thats where the problem is; not everyone wants an AK.

reviews and knowing someone with a valid opinion are completely different. majority of the reviews i've read (different tippmann sites,  plenty of pb forums, and amazon, i haven't heard one bad review, no gun is that good. people were consistently giving both PS and AB 5 stars maybe 4 based on price and shipping.) plus none of the shops near me will let me test the gun before i use it and they all have zero return policies on guns even if it was broken out of the box

I know several people with them and none of them have anything bad to say at all.  I merely pointed out the Tippmann 98 internals fact to indicate they should be reliable.

oops forgot to say good point but good internals alone doesn't make a good gun. the balance, weight, sight line, and user feel all come into play. plus like i said before not the most customization

IMO it looks weird and wouldn't be comfortable to hold the shroud.

They're not; you pretty much have to add a vertical grip to them.

figured as much but even with the grip i just don't like the look of them. but to each his own

never seen it done?

I haven't.  There was someone on here a while back working on a drum feed but he quit posting.

i honestly don't know if there is par say a "kit" for tippmanns or 98s but i have seen bottomfeed mag fed guns and i know at least some are homebrew ammo boxes.

i'm not exactly sure how it works but it involves milling the bottom of the marker and using a spring loaded mag

Got a link to one of these as an example?

just google magazine fed paintball guns and they come up. RAP4 just came out with a forcefeed 250 round bottomfeed ammo box

(generally holds 30 balls but i've heard of mags holding 60 as well)

A link to this would be nice as well.  With the exception of the 100 round Q-Loader pods (which I don't think really fits the parameters of what we're discussing here) the largest magazine that I can think of which holds .68 caliber paintballs are the magazines for the RAP4 T-series markers.  (The .43 caliber mags hold 20.)  A 30 round magazine would be big and a 60 round one would be monstrous.

i did some searching and found a 25 round mag at: http://www.getrealpaintball.com/ but i've read about a big scenario game in Minnesota that only allows magazine fed markers using 30 or 60 round mags or 200 round ammo boxes. the scenario game i played at (can't remember where, i spent a year on the road and any time i stopped i hit up the internet for paintball hot spots wherever i was) and i think i may have been using an AT4 cuz it had a 30 round mag.

and if/when i get to this, an e-grip would be rendered useless except maybe for burst mode because in a milsim match you don't go in with pods (at least the few i've been to you don't, only 30 round mags)

Are there magazine fed Tippmanns at these events?

i've seen a few maybe. i know there were at least 1 cuz everyone was freaking out cuz a guy had made a MG42 with a 500 round ammo box out of a Halo or something of the sort out of an A5

so you need to conserve and pick your shots. the basic premise of an E-grip is more paint in a smaller amount of time. that'd be great if i wanted to make maybe a SAW or some other machine gun (hopefully next project, either gotta make it myself or widen my budget)

Keep in mind that being the support gunner seriously increases your expenditures on paint.

totally had a brain fart and was like "ummmm...what?" but you mean i'll need more $$$ for paint if i do get around to that project? yes i know but it probably won't happen until after college. once i finish my 98 i see no future big payments (hopefully) so i'll have saved up a bunch, plus i'm starting work at 2 different stores that sell pretty decent paintballs so i'd be getting a big discount

an e-grip will be worthless. i know that a folding stock isn't necessarily stock M16 (i've seen a few here and there)

actually i've heard that most increase performance (not much, most say they don't notice much more than 10%) and i know that i could get a really nice performance most likely with better performance and accuracy than buying a M16-look-alike but i'm going the milsim route and that means sacrificing performance (right now, i know i can buy a much better one if i have the $$$ but i don't so thats my option) plus i've heard that alot of them can come apart and swap the barrel.

All of the ones I have experience with allow the barrel to be swapped out but there are some issues to be aware of:
  • Outer diameter of after-market barrel does not match diameter of barrel that came with foregrip/shroud kit.
    • Generally, the barrels from the M16/M4 kit have a larger outer diameter than most after-market barrels.  This is easy to deal with as a bit of electrical tape, a few o-rings or even some spacers (included in some kits) can be used for a tight fit.  I actually can not think of any cases where the kit barrel had too small an outer diameter.
    • If there is a diameter issue and the kit includes a front sight post it is a bit harder to hide the tape/o-ring modifications that might be necessary for a good fit.
  • The kits I have experience with use a set screw to attach the shrouds to the barrel.  This screw can damage the finish on after-market barrels and even effect the performance of thinner/cheaper barrels if overtightened.
now thats the kind of info i'm looking for. i have been told that at least for a BT-16 barrel the barrel is swappable. but i guess i'll just have to check once it arrives.

now what i'm curious about is how you have such an opinion on this yet from what i've read you're not really into milsim.

I've been playing since '85.  While I am not into mil-sim now, I did go through a mil-sim phase (as well as several other phases which made this sport insanely expensive for me).  The Armson kit I mentioned elsewhere was what I used to make a 98 Custom into an M16.  While I no longer have the 98-based M16 modded marker I do still have a 98-based AK which I kept because I really liked how it felt/shot.

please tell me is wood! a buddy has a AK-98 and its all synthetic composite and just looks like crap plus it looks even worse since he attempted to tiger stripe camo it. that would be a fun project though i don't know if i'd buy the wood parts, make the wood parts or just buy a one (either tacamo, RAP4, or a premade 98 conversion)



Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Good to see the noob knows better than Mack who has been playing since Christ was in diapers. Wacko


Christ was not, I repeat not, in diapers back then.*



*They didn't have diapers, they used swaddling cloths.
man you could not have picked a worse color to write it! lol
Just a regular guy playing with a regular 98...ya right!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 1:47am
<Much editing to save space>

Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by tarrguy57 tarrguy57 wrote:


i am buying metal parts, no crappy plastic here

Good, the only plastic kit I've ever liked is the Tippmann AK kit you mention later on.

i lucked out and found a Tapco for $30! hope i don't need to modify it to much to work with ACT cuz i've heard issues of having to drill extra holes.

There are actually several issues you might run into:
  • First one is the ACT thing you mentioned.  If the stock is not ACT compatible you will have to put an additional hole in the piece that fits between the marker body halves.  The stock end cap can be used as a guide but be very careful not to drill too deep or you will have problems with your ACT performance.
  • Another consideration is that newer 98 series markers, and the stocks for them, have a ridge on the stock that fits into a matching slot between the body halves.  This prevents the stock from rotating between the body halves during use.  (Which is really annoying.) 
    • If the marker is not set up for this and the stock is, the body will not close until something is altered.
    • If the stock doesn't have this ridge, it is very likely that you will experience stock rotation no matter how much you torque down the rear bolts on the body.  (And over-tightening the body bolts has been known to cause operation issues.) 
      • The old-school solution (from before these tabs were put on stuff) is to put a narrow piece of duct tape between the two grooves on the end cap of the stock to tighten up the fit.
      • Hopefully, if this is the stock I'm thinking of, you won't need to do this.  Most of the Tapco stocks I've seen installed (on A5s, not 98s) have actually required the removal of material for a proper fit.  If this holds true, you may get to skip the dreaded "stock spin syndrome."
  • A final stock-related issue concerns velocity problems.  If the hole in the stock for the mainspring and guidepin is deeper than the hole in the end cap the decreased tension on the spring can result in decreased velocity.  In this case either a spacer behind the guidepin or a heavier after-market spring will be needed.  (The opposite holds true if the hole is more shallow.)
also about a kit that would fit back over the "extra space" of the gun between the end of the barrel shroud and the beginning of a magazine, there is only one kit that i know of that comes close to doing that is the tippmann 3 piece conversion kit to make your 98 look like an AK and thats where the problem is; not everyone wants an AK.

This is actually the mil-sim kit I still have/use.  Oddly enough I detested this specific kit until I saw it on one of the silver 98 Customs that Tippmann used to make.  Since I liked the way it looked and was in the market for a new 98 I ended up with it.  I did replace the stock from the kit (which was too short) with a folding JCS stock though.

rthe balance, weight, sight line, and user feel all come into play. plus like i said before not the most customization

Everyone I know with an Alpha is happy with these aspects of the marker.  I also have to add that the "feel" of the AB comes closer to that of an M4 than any of the other mil-sim markers I have handled.  (There was an old clip-fed one--pre RAP4--that I tested years ago that had the proportions perfect but the weight was all wrong.)

i honestly don't know if there is par say a "kit" for tippmanns or 98s but i have seen bottomfeed mag fed guns and i know at least some are homebrew ammo boxes.

Most of the magazine-fed markers are designed for that as opposed to home-mods.  The coolest ammo box mod I ever saw didn't alter the markers feed system but had a hopper and warp feed hidden inside a box slung off the bottom of a heavy machine gun styled marker.  It was designed so you could open the box and poor paint right into the hopper.

i'm not exactly sure how it works but it involves milling the bottom of the marker and using a spring loaded mag

Got a link to one of these as an example?

just google magazine fed paintball guns and they come up. RAP4 just came out with a forcefeed 250 round bottomfeed ammo box

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it only works on the T68 series markers made by RAP4.

i did some searching and found a 25 round mag at: 
http://www.getrealpaintball.com/

Unfortunately, those only work on the AT series markers.  (Which, now that I think about it, might have been the marker I handled so long ago that had the M16 proportions just right even though the weight distribution felt wrong.)  On the subject of those markers; the original magazines used a track-feed system and were extremely unreliable.  My understanding is this system was replaced with a spring/string/pulley system (based on the explanation of someone at our field that has one) but they still have issues.  The last time he was out only 4 of his 6 magazines were functional.  The good news is the new system is apparently much easier for owners to maintain and repair.

but i've read about a big scenario game in Minnesota that only allows magazine fed markers using 30 or 60 round mags or 200 round ammo boxes. the scenario game i played at (can't remember where, i spent a year on the road and any time i stopped i hit up the internet for paintball hot spots wherever i was) and i think i may have been using an AT4 cuz it had a 30 round mag.

My personal thoughts were that if I ever got into a limited paint mil-sim game I would keep things simple and just toss a 30-50 round tac-cap on one of my A5s.

and if/when i get to this, an e-grip would be rendered useless except maybe for burst mode because in a milsim match you don't go in with pods (at least the few i've been to you don't, only 30 round mags)

Are there magazine fed Tippmanns at these events?

i've seen a few maybe. i know there were at least 1 cuz everyone was freaking out cuz a guy had made a MG42 with a 500 round ammo box out of a Halo or something of the sort out of an A5

Most of these mods use some type of tube feed to the original feed port. 

please tell me is wood!

It's not.  I stayed away from the wood kit because I didn't like the stock and also because the wood probably won't survive my playing style (at least the one I had at the time) as well as the plastic/composite. 

a buddy has a AK-98 and its all synthetic composite and just looks like crap

That was my opinion as well until I saw the kit on a silver Custom 98.

plus it looks even worse since he attempted to tiger stripe camo it. that would be a fun project though i don't know if i'd buy the wood parts, make the wood parts or just buy a one (either tacamo, RAP4, or a premade 98 conversion)

Tacamo's are neat markers but unless they've upgraded the mechanical trigger system in the last few years be prepared for a long, stiff trigger pull and a slower rate of fire than a stock Tippmann.  Most people on here will suggest avoiding RAP4 as they have a history of product reliability issues.  I remember seeing a wood AK kit for the 98 quite a while back that I really liked but, as stated before, I wasn't sure how good it would look after I played with it. 
(I should note that I have seen several wood kits for this application and while I didn't like the stock on one, the setup that I did like was quite expensive.)



man you could not have picked a worse color to write it! lol

Want to bet on that?


Edited afterthought:  Probably the reason I like 98 based AK setups and not 98 based M16/M4 setups is the fact that having carried both an M16 and an M4 I can easily spot the flaws in the mil-sim versions of these and since I was never armed with any version of the AK, I do not spot the flaws in those type of mods. 

Second edited afterthought:

If this is the stock you ordered . . .

. . . you may not be happy with the length.  However, I know someone who solved their short stock problem with a shotgun recoil pad on the end of it so there is a solution.  Also, be careful not to over-torque the pin that the stock swivels on.  Unless they have changed them, they are plastic and will break if over-stressed.


Edited by Mack - 03 September 2010 at 4:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 9:17am
I'm not a huge fan of folding stocks actually. I had the JCS that Mack recommends, but even that fell short. It seems wobbly. I had this one: http://www.rap4.com/paintball/store/tippmann-a5-folding-buttstock , and while it felt sturdier, I still wasnt thrilled with it. I ended up being pretty much an anti-stock guy in the end. Possibly, because I ended up not liking remotes either and IMO they go hand in hand.
 
Regarding standing up for Mack's honor... anytime. You will find that Mack is one of the more knowledgeable forumers on this site and always willing to help out new players. It annoys me when I see new players without a clue disgarding his suggestions. They are sound, but experience is sometimes the better teacher.  However, I know that he is a big boy and if he's ok with it, than I'll move along.
 
As for limited feed markers, that seems to be a pretty niche crowd. I play at 4-5 various fields and have yet to run across such a thing other than one of the fields had a pistol only day. It drew maybe 50 players from my understanding. Modding a 98 for a bottom feed magazine would be a lot of work, and I suspect some of the ones you were seeing were more than likely Milsig, Rap4 or some other marker specifically made to be magazine fed. As Mack said, an easier and probably cheaper solution would be getting a Cyclone and a Tac cap if you are playing a limited capacity game. If you have your heart set on cutting it up and attempting it though, keep us in the loop, would be interesting to see it done.
 
As for my magazine fed marker, here it is:
 
It utilizes Ariakon ACP2.0 pistol magazines that clip onto the top. It also runs limited air capability in the form of 88g CO2 cartridges that actually fit in through the front of the foregrip. The stock is a canibalized Rap 4 stock with homemade mounting. The barrel is a J&J 12" I beleive. It has had limited play, mostily shooting through a few clips in the backyard, but was a fun project.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I'm not a huge fan of folding stocks actually. I had the JCS that Mack recommends, but even that fell short. It seems wobbly.

I have to admit that my JCS has been modified a bit:
  • Tape around the part that replaces the end cap for a tighter (no spin) fit.
  • Since I don't have to extend it all the way I added a second bolt and nut at the point that the front of the rear piece goes through the front piece.  (I did this to help prevent it from adjusting its own length but this may be why I have never considered it "wobbly" as well.)

 I had this one: http://www.rap4.com/paintball/store/tippmann-a5-folding-buttstock , and while it felt sturdier, I still wasnt thrilled with it. I ended up being pretty much an anti-stock guy in the end. Possibly, because I ended up not liking remotes either and IMO they go hand in hand.

I was never a remote fan either, but after I picked up a B5 a while back it became mandatory.  Actually, it wasn't the remote specifically that bothered me; it was the tank on my back making the pins in my back act up.  I finally plunked down the money on a decent vest, which moved the tank up above the belt, and don't seem to be having any problems yet.  (Knock on wood.)
 
Regarding standing up for Mack's honor... anytime. You will find that Mack is one of the more knowledgeable forumers on this site and always willing to help out new players. It annoys me when I see new players without a clue disgarding his suggestions. They are sound, but experience is sometimes the better teacher.  However, I know that he is a big boy and if he's ok with it, than I'll move along.
 
As for limited feed markers, that seems to be a pretty niche crowd. I play at 4-5 various fields and have yet to run across such a thing other than one of the fields had a pistol only day. It drew maybe 50 players from my understanding. Modding a 98 for a bottom feed magazine would be a lot of work, and I suspect some of the ones you were seeing were more than likely Milsig, Rap4 or some other marker specifically made to be magazine fed.

That's what I was thinking as well.  (Which is too bad because I would really like to check out the info on a mag fed Tippmann.)  Related to that, I'm going to have to find out exactly what it is the guy at my field uses now.  (The one I discussed spring/string/pulley feed mags with.)  I thought it was something from GetRealPaintball but their site says their mags still use a chain/track system.

As Mack said, an easier and probably cheaper solution would be getting a Cyclone and a Tac cap if you are playing a limited capacity game. If you have your heart set on cutting it up and attempting it though, keep us in the loop, would be interesting to see it done.

Ditto.
 
As for my magazine fed marker, here it is:
 
It utilizes Ariakon ACP2.0 pistol magazines that clip onto the top. It also runs limited air capability in the form of 88g CO2 cartridges that actually fit in through the front of the foregrip. The stock is a canibalized Rap 4 stock with homemade mounting. The barrel is a J&J 12" I beleive. It has had limited play, mostily shooting through a few clips in the backyard, but was a fun project.

I love looking at that marker.  Every time I do, two thoughts go through my mind:
  • Wow, that is so cool . . .
  • . . . and . . . I can't believe you cut up a gilled Tippmann for that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 12:19pm
I had to modify my JCS as well. I had milled and redrilled the holes where it mounted to the endcap to make it tilt down more so that when it was against my shoulder the sights were almost dead on. My problem was with the "hinge" . The pin that was supposed to keep it from closing didn't hold worth a crap and I could easily make it collapse without pushing the button. It was nice that it collapsed and adjusted for length though.
 
The gills are the best part.. I keep thinking about putting an LED in the breach so that it glows. And you would probably cry a little more as I cut up the other gilled M98 I had a few months ago for an E-bolted project that I can just never seem to find the time to finish. That, and I mounted the front grip too far forward, so now I have to redo the work that I already did. Which I hate doing. Angry In hindsight since I never really use this one, I should have just pillaged it for the body and kept the other one intact. Oh well..
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