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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2010 at 9:23pm
Whale, those lists were created before I started working in our healthcare system.
 
I make it the best.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2010 at 9:31pm
Yes; while you may still die, at least PCF makes sure you die happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 9:43am
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

FE, my question still stands. Why is it relevant to call America a Christian country? What does it change? 

The laws we have are based around an ideology of individual freedom / protection. Calling it Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, etc doesn't change anything because we're not a theocracy. 

Otherwise, if this were truly a Christian country, fornication and adultery would be illegal. 
 
It changes the world view...
 
Look at the quotes from our founders that I posted (unlike the ones that bruce posted where they aren't referenced... Typical of the left to invent quotes that fit their world view... They probably came from athiest.com or something similar)
 
Look at our society when it was founded. NO one had locks on their doors... ever.
 
Could you do that today?
 
Church was a MAJOR part of society. Most legislators attended. Shoot the biggest church in the US was the church that held services in the CAPITAL building! During the time of Jefferson...
Hmm. Isn't Jefferson the guy that started the whole "separation" of church and state... Yet, he participated in the very services that today are banned...
 
Was he being hypocritical... Or maybe today's "brilliant" minds are actually changing his words to fit their world view eliminating church.
 
 
Another thought. Why does America have the best healthcare (before Obamacare) in the history of the world?
 
Look back at how hospitals started in the USA... Most still carry the names of the churches that founded them.
 
They weren't founded because of atheistic or deist supporters, as they typically only care about themselves if you look at their impact on society.
 
Instead they were started by believers in God and their help for their neighbor.
 
Without morality, and ethics our system falls into ruin. The government spends too much and overtax (enslave) our supposed "free" residents.
 
I can appreciate your stance, however, your post highlights my main problem with the Christian labeling dilemma.
 
Not labeling something 'Christian' doesn't change a thing.
 
I don't blame the decline in morals on the subtraction of the word 'Christian' from the nation. In fact, I'd say Christianity is far more prevalent in a form (not necessarily my form, but being fair here) now than ever in history. How many TV shows or movies do you see from the 40's, 50's, or 60's that bring up religion in a good light? How often did Lucy go to Church? How often did Dick van Dyke reverence Christ?
 
Yet now, it seems like Church is freely mentioned. And as far as morals go...I go back to the original dilemma. Up until the mid-60's (and much later in other places), segregation was a going rate. The south in particular was very racially heated.
 
And the only difference between movies and media then and now is that then they talked about fornication, murder, and all else you can imagine, now they're allowed to show it. I find the former more offensive-murder in particular had a very glossy coat put over it. How many people died ever episode of Gunsmoke or Bonanza? Yet, it was just a drop to the ground rather than the violent, bloody death that we (accurately) see now.
 
Moving away from media, how about the corruption in the government and law enforcemernt of the 50's and 60's? They may have worn their hair tidier and been more strict on how they spoke in front of ladies, but it didn't stop them from being woefully corrupt and biased.
 
I think that immorality has always been just as prevalent as it is now. I think that we're just more exposed now, thanks to everyone being so connected with the media and technology. I think that, if anything, we've moved to a spot where you can be openly Christian and not ridiculed by your classmates, coworkers, and family.
 
Again, I think it boils down to exposure. I just don't buy into the whole...the world is so much more evil now than back in the day...ideology.
 
I believe that evil is the same whether it be kept bottled up, or whether it presents itself. In God's eyes do you think the fact that people are openly evil is different from when they hid it in shame? It's all evil.
 
Do you think that a hospital that promotes God on its sign yet harbors corruption and lies on the inside is really glorifying to Him?
 
I don't think so. I don't think that slapping a Christian label on a corrupt government full of lies and almost every abomination imaginable would elevate this nation's status in the eyes of God.
 
 
 
I see your points and I agree... Today we are not Christian as a nation. Hence the reasons our country is in such a poor condition.
 
Until we go back to our history and look at what the founders actually intended... Only then will we be able to rebuild what the United States was intended to be.
 
You mentioned media. Hollywood has always been pushing morality to the left. That is what they do.
 
The problem is... Our education system has become little hollywood. Pushing the exact same agenda.
 
We don't know our history, (look at the age of the posters on this site from the thread above) And the way you young guys say "the US wasn't founded as a Christian nation".
 
That is completely false, and yet... You guys have had a huge part of your nations history omitted from your history books, so you don't know it. Therefore it sounds like it isn't true when you are presented with it...
 
 
Let's look at some other examples...
 
Bias is ignoring history.
 
Did you know that the first Bible produced in America was the Aiken Bible, in 1782. It was commissioned by congress, for the instruction of students in the Schools of America...
 
My family has one of these Bibles.
 
Here is what it states inside the cover.
 
"That in every well regulated Government in Christendom The Sacred Books of the Old and New Testament, commonly called the Holy Bible, are printed and published under the Authority of the Sovereign Powers, in order to prevent the fatal confusion that would arise, and the alarming Injuries the Christian Faith might suffer from the Spurious and erroneous Editions of Divine Revelation. That your Memorialist has no doubt but this work is an Object worthy the attention of the Congress of the United States of America, who will not neglect spiritual security, while they are virtuously contending for temporal blessings. Under this persuasion your Memorialist begs leave to, inform your Honours That he both begun and made considerable progress in a neat Edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools, But being cautious of suffering his copy of the Bible to Issue forth without the sanction of Congress, Humbly prays that your Honours would take this important matter into serious consideration & would be pleased to appoint one Member or Members of your Honourable Body to inspect his work so that the same may be published under the Authority of Congress. And further, your Memorialist prays, that he may be commissioned or otherwise appointed & Authorized to print and vend Editions of, the Sacred Scriptures, in such manner and form as may best suit the wants and demands of the good people of these States, provided the same be in all things perfectly consonant to the Scriptures as heretofore Established and received amongst us."
 
 
BY THE UNITED STATES IN CONGRESS ASSEMBLED:

September 12th, 1782.

THE Committee to whom was referred a Memorial of Robert Aitken, printer, dated 21st January, 1781, respecting an edition of the Holy Scriptures, report, "That Mr. Aitken has, at a great expense, now finished an American edition of the Holy Scriptures in English; that the Committee have from time to time attended to his progress in the work; that they also recommended it to the two Chaplains of Congress to examine and give their opinion of the execution, who have accordingly reported thereon; the recommendation and report being as follows:


"Philadelphia, 1st September, 1782.

"Reverend Gentlemen,
"Our knowledge of our piety and public spirit leads us without apology to recommend to your particular attention the edition of the Holy Scriptures publishing by Mr. Aitken. He undertook this expensive work at a time when, from the circumstances of the war, and English edition of the Bible could not be imported, nor any opinion formed how long the obstruction might continue. On this account particularly he deserves applause and encouragement. We therefore wish you, Reverend Gentlemen, to examine the execution of the work, and if approved, to give the sanction of our judgment, and the weigh of your recommendation.


We are, with very great respect,
Your most obedient humble servants.
(Sign'd) JAMES DUANE, Chairman in behalf
of a Committee of Congress on Mr. Atken's Memorial.


Reverend Doct. White and Revd. Mr. Duffield,
Chaplains of the United States in Congress assembled.

Report.

Gentlemen,
AGREEABLY to your desire we have paid attention to Mr. Robert Aitken's impression of the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. Having selected and examined a variety of passages throughout the work, we are of opinion that it is executed with great accuracy as to the sense, and with as few grammatical and typographical errors as could be expected in an undertaking of such magnitude. Being ourselves witnesses of the demand for this invaluable book, we rejoice in the present prospect of a supply; hoping that it will prove as advantageous as it is honorable to the Gentleman, who has exerted himself to furnish it, at the evident risk of private fortune. We are, Gentlemen,
Your very respectful and humble servants,

(Sign'd) WILLIAM WHITE,
GEORGE DUFFIELD.

Philadelphia, September 10th, 1782.

Honble James Duane, Esq. Chairman, and the other
Honble Gentlemen of the Committee of Congress on
Mr. Aitken's Memorial."

Whereupon,
RESOLVED,
THAT the United States in Congress assembled highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion, as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorize him to publish this Recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.

CHA. THOMSON, Sec'ry.
 
 
 
 
 
so wait...  The Bible was commissioned and promoted for American Education by the first congress... The same group that founded the country...
 
Wait, that doesn't fit the "non-Christian founders"...
 
 
Ever been to the Capital?
 
I have, many times, and when standing in the rotunda, you will be awed by four HUGE paintings. All of which were commissioned by the government.
 
First one is "Landing of Columbus"
 
 
 
Hmm, there is a cross in the background, and Columbus names the place "San Salvador". (aka Holy Savior)
 
Picture 2
 
Baptism of Pocahontas...
 
 
Very "non" Christian theme... right?... Oh wait. And Congress commissioned this painting... Showing a Baptism in a Church... So much for "separation of church and state..."
 
Picture 3
 
Embarkation of the Pilgrims.
 
This one is pretty cool, as it shows Governor Carver  praying... Very non religious in nature, I'm sure... Don't notice the Bible, as the focal point of the painting...
 
 
 
 
 
It sounds as if your view of society begins and ends in a single generation... From the 50's through today.
 
Would you agree that education is different than it was in 1900? How about 1920? 1940?
 
At what point did it shift dramatically to a "new" style of education? That would be when they took prayer out of schools and instead of teaching morals and character along side science and history... They now teach "social studies".
 
In my library I have education materials from the 1600's through today. I have US history books that were published in 1876 showing the first 100 years of history. When you compare that book to history books of today... you will see the bias of omission. Typical of a system that wants to "rewrite" history, and reduce the impact of the Christian faith in the foundation of our country...
 
I also have the first printing of "The life of George Washington"... You know, the one where the story of the cherry tree is told.
 
We have all read that story in our current "history" books. But, what we don't know is that they only told you part of the story. They omitted the Christian part of the story, and in doing so changed the point of the story...
 
Here is the dumbed down version, invented version.
 
 
Find the original and read it for yourself to see the difference. As that is the goal of modern "education"...
 
To keep you from searching out the sources yourself and just believe what they tell you happened... Even if someone made it up...
 
 
They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 9:55am
So what you're saying is that because they did it then, we should do it now?  I'm all for it!  Let's bring back slaves and an end to woman suffrage too!  They did it then, so clearly it is the right thing to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 10:15am
Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

an end to woman suffrage too!  They did it then, so clearly it is the right thing to do.



Im all for that part. Stop letting them drive while you're at it.
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 10:17am
Interesting how the contesting of his health care claim gets skipped right on by...
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 10:49am

What country holds the most patents for medical devices?

What country treats any patient regardless of their ability to pay?
 
What country has found the most cure treatments in the history of the world?
 
What country has the best doctors in the world?
 
I could go on and on...
 
But why bother? Even when I prove stuff, you guys still spout off the typical liberal meme, and ignore the facts.
 
 
 
Example, the "child birth" rates in other countries are figured differently than here in the states. If a child is born in the US 5 months premature, we try to save them. In other countries. They don't, and they don't count them as child deaths, but miscarriages, which hugly skews the "world" figures...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

What country treats any patient regardless of their ability to pay?

So that includes preventative care?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hysteria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 12:17pm
To start off I want to know, why America?  Why did God choose this subset of the earth and the residents that live here in this era to support and love more than everyone else?  Why this country that is 1 out of hundreds on the earth?  Furthermore, why this planet out of 8 in our solar system, why this solar system out of 100 billion in our galaxy and why our galaxy out of 100 billion in the universe?  Surely he would have a very good reason to be so invested in us when we are so infinitely insignificant.

Now onto your arguments; the problem with your conclusions is how they are reached and the information you use therein.  Your sample population is 1.  You use but a single dependent variable and your variable is not explicitly defined, nor is it objectively calculated.  Your independent variable is equally subjective and ill defined.  That is, you only take America into account, your definition of religiosity is basic and primarily a guesstimate based on one or two factors that aren't even defined and your definition of America's prosperity is based on conjecture and hyperbole.

The fact of the mater is when other countries are taken into account and when religiosity and prosperity are well defined, the data are clear and they all point to religiosity having a negative impact on prosperity and well-being.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by Hysteria Hysteria wrote:

To start off I want to know, why America?  Why did God choose this subset of the earth and the residents that live here in this era to support and love more than everyone else? 


Duh . . . because I'm here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

What country holds the most patents for medical devices?

The U.S. This, however, does not equate to the actual delivery of care to patients.

What country treats any patient regardless of their ability to pay?

Pretty much any civilized, developed western country. Most do it significantly better than the U.S., and provide much more comprehensive care - including preventative - than the U.S. does for those who aren't privately insured. Further, most nations manage to do so without patients being left massively indebted, despite spending less per capita on healthcare than the U.S. government does.

What country has found the most cure treatments in the history of the world?

Probably the U.S. This, however, does not equate to the actual delivery of care to patients.


What country has the best doctors in the world?

Any developed country has a lot of fantastic doctors. There are a few of the very best in any given field, and they typically work and research around the world. The U.S. likely has a disproportionate number, but this is irrelevant to the delivery of normal care and treatment in the vast majority of medical visits.
 
I could go on and on...

You certainly do...

 
But why bother? Even when I prove stuff, you guys still spout off the typical liberal meme, and ignore the facts.
 
...And whenever we contest your position with facts and statistics, you blame Liberalism and Godlessness. Pro tip- I'm not sure if you follow Canadian politics at all, but I voted for the Conservative Party of Canada in the last two elections. And you've yet to materially contest most of the points brought up. Rather you've attempted to lead us astray with irrelevant tangents.
 
Example, the "child birth" rates in other countries are figured differently than here in the states. If a child is born in the US 5 months premature, we try to save them. In other countries. They don't, and they don't count them as child deaths, but miscarriages, which hugly skews the "world" figures...
 
Certainly there is likely some skew to this statistic; it is only one amongst many. Do you have similar apologetics for in excess of 40 million Americans completely lacking health coverage due to being uninsured?
 


America has undoubtedly made a disproportionate contribution to the *technology*of healthcare, and leads the way in research, assisted by all the other developed nations. However an average American family does not necessarily receive the 'best healthcare in the world'. If they are rich or well insured, they will get healthcare equal to the best other nations have to offer. If, however, they are uninsured or underinsured they either will not, or will do so only at the cost of potentially crushing debt.

'Best' healthcare is a wishy washy statement, however in any developed state I believe that a significant portion of the population going entirely without healthcare automatically excludes you from the running. Many Americans - those not as fortunate as you - would likely contest your position, as they're not financially in a position to partake of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 2:50pm
FE, Columbus was Catholic and he was sailing for Spain. The painter wasn't about to depict him with a Buddha. Not to mention that site of landing was in the Bahamas, which is as much a part of America as Venezuela.  The story of Pocahontas was popular at the time of the second painting because it showed the Native Americans adapting to European ways. It should be apparent why that was significant. Finally the story of the Pilgrims is such an ingrained part of American culture, its inclusion also makes sense.  None of these are evidence of a Christian nation. 

Can you stop trying to find Jesus in Government and settle for finding him in toast or something? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 3:15pm
To be fair Darur, America *was* originally settled as a Christian nation. Religion was such a part of life in thsoe days that that was inevitable. However, since then, most developed nations have grown out of being overly religious and have found success in rationality. Just look at the countries that *are* still devoutly religious as a matter of policy; other than the oil states they tend to be pretty bloody miserable places, and even the oil states are run autocratically. Conversely, states which delibereately *oppress* religion are normally pretty bad too.

The U.S. - and most of the west - has hit the right balance, I think, in being completely tolerant of religion and religious practice, while rightly letting it have no place in Government in any meaningful way. As a component of individual life, religion absolutely can have a lot of value. There's just no role for 'faith' in the concrete, rational world of running nations. Blind adherence to doctrine at a governmental level can be devastatingly dangerous, as history has shown all too many times. At the same time, the state has no place imposing on private religious practice or association so long as it does not harm others. If that means wearing a ceremonial dagger, or building a contentious mosque, or leaving class to pray, or what have you, it's 'no harm, no foul'. Religion is only inherently harmful when it becomes and instrument or a genesis of state power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 3:19pm
The Jefferson Bible pretty is pretty much a counterpoint to the whole Aitken Bible story. If you want to pick a more "Murican Religion  than Christianity, how about Mormonism since it was invented here? I mean....ummm....revealed to the Prophet here.

I certainly would not argue that schools were less secular in the past, but you can't legitimately argue that that always made things better. Lower public school attendance by the Irish and Italians not just due to socio-economic status, but also to some very anti-Catholic curriculum material comes to mind. There are enough examples of society being worse off when there was prayer in school, and national tragedies  happening even after periods of increased religiosity (US Civil War after 2nd Great Awakening) so your attempt at a causational argument showing that lack of forced prayer in school causes murder, floods, economic collapse etc. doesn't even show a correlation let alone causation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

To be fair Darur, America *was* originally settled as a Christian nation. Religion was such a part of life in thsoe days that that was inevitable. However, since then, most developed nations have grown out of being overly religious and have found success in rationality. Just look at the countries that *are* still devoutly religious as a matter of policy; other than the oil states they tend to be pretty bloody miserable places, and even the oil states are run autocratically. Conversely, states which delibereately *oppress* religion are normally pretty bad too.

I agree, and I think we're saying the same thing. Any observer of history can easily see how much the Church was part of everyday life, but my point is these paintings are not proof of government support of religion, or a nation founded as a Christian nation they are merely reflections of the time (Columbus being Catholic, etc. etc.).  Although I think its key to point out that "settled as a Christian nation" does not mean "intended as a Christian nation".

Quote
The U.S. - and most of the west - has hit the right balance, I think, in being completely tolerant of religion and religious practice, while rightly letting it have no place in Government in any meaningful way. As a component of individual life, religion absolutely can have a lot of value. There's just no role for 'faith' in the concrete, rational world of running nations. Blind adherence to doctrine at a governmental level can be devastatingly dangerous, as history has shown all too many times. At the same time, the state has no place imposing on private religious practice or association so long as it does not harm others. If that means wearing a ceremonial dagger, or building a contentious mosque, or leaving class to pray, or what have you, it's 'no harm, no foul'. Religion is only inherently harmful when it becomes and instrument or a genesis of state power.

Agreed completely
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2010 at 6:15pm
FE, let me try rephrasing my argument one more time, and then I give up Wink

You say that America is going to experience a decline in quality of life due to its decline in recognition of God.

My reply is that the God of your beliefs doesn't honor labels, He honors obedience. And I would argue that not once in her history has America fully subscribed to a Christian doctrine in her laws, government, or processes. 

I believe that we are a country, like all other countries in history, made up of corruption, lies, egos, evil intent, and evil actions.

Remember what God said about taking His name in vain? It's far worse in the eyes of God to claim to be a believer and harbor evils than it is to be an unbeliever.

So my point-the label is pointless.

And not just on that level. It's also pointless in identity. The laws are the same whether they vocally endorse Christianity or not. 

Bringing religion into a debate about politics is like saying "I've got nothing left, so I'll just fall back on 'God doesn't like it so there' and walk away".

I see this most prevalent in the gay marriage controversy. To be honest, gay marriage doesn't affect a Christian at all. It doesn't change one thing about his beliefs, the environment in which he worships, or the world he lives. 

Yet, all over the country it's common belief that if gay marriage is enacted, God will abandon this country and all she stands for. So I guess the rampant divorce, adultery, fornication, drug and alcohol abuse, pornography, laziness, egotism, etc etc etc is all good and well as long as two dudes can't enjoy tax  benefits.

I'm just done with labels altogether. I'm tired of defending my conservatism in these arguments (both on this forum and in everyday life) to people who throw down terms like "liberal" at me if I'm pro gay marriage, or pro legalization of marijuana. And I certainly don't see the since in labeling a nation full of degenerate, lazy gluttons Christian to keep God from breaking our legs for the monthly rent. 

I just don't think He cares at this point what we call it. Lipstick on a pig, eh?
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