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ArthurBignose View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArthurBignose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 3:46pm
Ooh, a quote war sounds like fun.  I'll add these to the battle:
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there  were no religion in it." -John Adams

You'll really like these next three:

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.  This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." -Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt

"
Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system [Christianity] than did he himself." -Thomas Jefferson in his personal journal

"
We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ." -Thomas Jefferson

Here is a real heavy hitter about separation of church and state.

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship,  that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac

And some comedic relief:

"What is it the New Testament teaches us?  To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith." - Thomas Paine

What I'm really interested in though, is your answer to my previous question:

Originally posted by ArthurBignose ArthurBignose wrote:


If the universe is not billions of years old, how do you explain something such as the galaxy cluster Abell 370, which is about 6,000,000,000 light years away?  As you know from your science degree, it would take 6,000,000,000 years for the light from that cluster to reach earth, which means it had to have been sent out at least 6,000,000,000 years ago in order for us to see today.  Perhaps God created the photons a few thousand years ago already traveling towards earth in hopes to confuse future scientists and provide evidence against his own creation?  Not likely.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 4:13pm
Well, since I was talking about the age of the earth... and not the universe.. But what is a strawman between friends...
 
I will answer your question with a question...
 
When Jesus was born, history (as well as the Bible) tells us that a brand new star showed where he was born...
 
How could the light from that star appear at the exact moment Jesus was born? Since we know it had to be many light years away...
 
 
 
Oh, and quotes only have real relevance when the source that they came from can be verified...


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 03 September 2010 at 4:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 4:30pm
OK FE, I'll play a little if you do. Hypothetically God would have known when Jesus was to be born since he is omniscient and would have created the star however-many years before for the light to reach Earth then. That, or it was a comet or something. This is of course, assuming the the Bible is an accurate source of historical and astrological events.

Now it's my turn for a question: Was Aquinas wrong when he stated that God cannot be a deceiver because that would make him imperfect and then not God? Would God, which if we can agree on some of his believed qualities, who is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and otherwise perfect, intentionally plant bad data to cause skeptics to damn themselves by believing evidence( which by your belief was created by God, just like everything else) or are we just to stupid to interpret said evidence (Carbon-14 data, the speed of light, physics, fossils, geology, genetics etc)? Please explain your understanding and opinion of Aquinas' evidence for God.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 5:55pm
FE, my question still stands. Why is it relevant to call America a Christian country? What does it change? 

The laws we have are based around an ideology of individual freedom / protection. Calling it Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, etc doesn't change anything because we're not a theocracy. 

Otherwise, if this were truly a Christian country, fornication and adultery would be illegal. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

OK FE, I'll play a little if you do. Hypothetically God would have known when Jesus was to be born since he is omniscient and would have created the star however-many years before for the light to reach Earth then. That, or it was a comet or something. This is of course, assuming the the Bible is an accurate source of historical and astrological events.

Now it's my turn for a question: Was Aquinas wrong when he stated that God cannot be a deceiver because that would make him imperfect and then not God? Would God, which if we can agree on some of his believed qualities, who is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and otherwise perfect, intentionally plant bad data to cause skeptics to damn themselves by believing evidence( which by your belief was created by God, just like everything else) or are we just to stupid to interpret said evidence (Carbon-14 data, the speed of light, physics, fossils, geology, genetics etc)? Please explain your understanding and opinion of Aquinas' evidence for God.
 
In the Bible it tells us to study what God Created as it will show us more about God.
 
I think that is the true point of science. But, when you look at science without the truth of God being involved you start going down a path that will lead to silly interpretation.
 
Is that Gods fault?
 
We all have free will. And that  free will enables us to decide to ignore God and pretend that he doesn't exist. When you have that world view then you will make incorrect assumptions based on the evidence.
 
A devout evolutionist will see billions of years, even when the evidence says otherwise. Is that Gods fault? He gave the devout evolutionist free will to choose on his own...
 
 
As a Creationist, I see all man as the same as you and me. So if I see a super old man, he was just as intelligent as we are today. He used tools and built things.
 
Evolutionists think he could be "pre-evolved" and not as smart.
 
That type of thinking is very degrading as it shows that they believe some haven't evolved as much and are therefore dumb...
 
when mental capacity can be developed in anyone without deficiencies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 

 
A devout evolutionist will see billions of years, even when the evidence says otherwise.
 
 


El oh el.


Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

Strato,

Here's my question, why do the core beliefs of Christianity go beyond Love God and love thy neighbor as you love thyself?

Jesus himself said

Quote Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.


Or, if you prefer a little Luke to accompany and confirm your Matthew:
Quote Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself.


He literally tells us that on those two commandments hang the law and the word of the prophets. And if you think about it, that's all it really boils down to doesn't it? You should love God for giving you what he has given and treat others how you would want to be treated, and that really, honest to God, takes care of every other law or mandate ever handed down by prophets, kings, or supreme court justices.

How can anyone say that there's any more to the core beliefs of Christianity than those two beliefs right there?
If I loved my neighbor as myself, I'd be arrested and put in prison for several years...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2010 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by StormyKnight StormyKnight wrote:

If I loved my neighbor as myself, I'd be arrested and put in prison for several years...


Major LOL but the possible interpretations are quite disturbing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2010 at 12:05am
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by StormyKnight StormyKnight wrote:

If I loved my neighbor as myself, I'd be arrested and put in prison for several years...


Major LOL but the possible interpretations are quite disturbing.
As intended.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2010 at 10:56pm
 
Originally posted by StormyKnight StormyKnight wrote:

If I loved my neighbor as myself, I'd be arrested and put in prison for several years...

I lol'd hard at this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2010 at 8:52am
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

FE, my question still stands. Why is it relevant to call America a Christian country? What does it change? 

The laws we have are based around an ideology of individual freedom / protection. Calling it Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, etc doesn't change anything because we're not a theocracy. 

Otherwise, if this were truly a Christian country, fornication and adultery would be illegal. 
 
It changes the world view...
 
Look at the quotes from our founders that I posted (unlike the ones that bruce posted where they aren't referenced... Typical of the left to invent quotes that fit their world view... They probably came from athiest.com or something similar)
 
Look at our society when it was founded. NO one had locks on their doors... ever.
 
Could you do that today?
 
Church was a MAJOR part of society. Most legislators attended. Shoot the biggest church in the US was the church that held services in the CAPITAL building! During the time of Jefferson...
Hmm. Isn't Jefferson the guy that started the whole "separation" of church and state... Yet, he participated in the very services that today are banned...
 
Was he being hypocritical... Or maybe today's "brilliant" minds are actually changing his words to fit their world view eliminating church.
 
 
Another thought. Why does America have the best healthcare (before Obamacare) in the history of the world?
 
Look back at how hospitals started in the USA... Most still carry the names of the churches that founded them.
 
They weren't founded because of atheistic or deist supporters, as they typically only care about themselves if you look at their impact on society.
 
Instead they were started by believers in God and their help for their neighbor.
 
Without morality, and ethics our system falls into ruin. The government spends too much and overtax (enslave) our supposed "free" residents.
They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2010 at 9:22am
You do realize the world changes and it has nothing to do with religion right?
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2010 at 9:40am
Has anyone talked about the lizard species in Aussie-land that is moving towards live birth?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2010 at 9:45am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
 
Another thought. Why does America have the best healthcare (before Obamacare) in the history of the world?
 


"Many Americans are under the delusion that we have “the best health care system in the world,”"

"That may be true at many top medical centers. But the disturbing truth is that this country lags well behind other advanced nations in delivering timely and effective care."

  • Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990

  • Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960

  • Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.

  • Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana

  • Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.

Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2010 at 3:51pm
Wait wait wait, does FE think America actually has the best healthcare in the world? Or had?

That's insane.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2010 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
In the Bible it tells us to study what God Created as it will show us more about God.You sound at least slightly open to actually acknowledging science as worthwhile at this point, before you go on to discredit this statement by arguing that The Bible is the ultimate authority on science. You apparently think examining anything stated in the Bible further is pointless since it's settled fact.
 
I think that is the true point of science. But, when you look at science without the truth of God being involved you start going down a path that will lead to silly interpretation.So unless you look at data and interpret the facts without consulting the Bible, you're going to be wrong? Lets consider data that suggests that the earth is more than 4,000 years old, unless I consult my Bible and am convinced that something must be wrong with the data since the Bible only accounts for 4,000 years I'm being silly?
 
Is that Gods fault?
 
We all have free will. And that  free will enables us to decide to ignore God and pretend that he doesn't exist. When you have that world view then you will make incorrect assumptions based on the evidence.So it's foolish to base your ideas on evidence rather than a preconceived notion of God?
 
A devout evolutionist will see billions of years, even when the evidence says otherwise I think you have this part mixed up. Is that Gods fault? He gave the devout evolutionist free will to choose on his own...
 
 
As a Creationist, I see all man as the same as you and me. So if I see a super old man, he was just as intelligent as we are today. He used tools and built things.
 
Evolutionists think he could be "pre-evolved" and not as smart.
 
That type of thinking is very degrading as it shows that they believe some haven't evolved as much and are therefore dumb...
 
when mental capacity can be developed in anyone without deficiencies.I'm not sure what you're getting at here. While scientists believe Neandertals (A primative human of a different species that shared a common ancestor of modern humans) were not as intelligent as Homo Sapiens sapiens (modern humans) nobody who is qualified is saying that a man from 2 or 20k years ago had less capacity for intelligence, just less available knowledge. If you're trying to tie the theory of evolution to social Darwinism and pseudo-science like phrenology we resolved that debate about 80 years ago.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2010 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Another thought. Why does America have the best healthcare (before Obamacare) in the history of the world?


I beg your pardon? If you actually believe this you are truly blind to what happens in your own country.

According to the CDC, in 2009 15.4% of Americans had no health insurance. That's over 46 million. More Americans have no health insurance than there are people living in many developed countries. I friggin' dare you to tell me that they have (or had, before OMGFMLOBAMA!) the 'best healthcare in the history of the world')

Those Americans with good, comprehensive coverage do indeed have fantastic health care. They can get among the best of what modern development has to offer. But no state with 46 million people lacking healthcare can be called the 'best in the history of the world'. Add to that the lack of emphasis on prevention - as evidenced by America's staggering obesity rates, for instance - and any claim to a spot on the healthcare podium for the United States is informed only by arrogance and hubris, not fact.


Edited by brihard - 05 September 2010 at 8:12pm
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Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2010 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

FE, my question still stands. Why is it relevant to call America a Christian country? What does it change? 

The laws we have are based around an ideology of individual freedom / protection. Calling it Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, etc doesn't change anything because we're not a theocracy. 

Otherwise, if this were truly a Christian country, fornication and adultery would be illegal. 
 
It changes the world view...
 
Look at the quotes from our founders that I posted (unlike the ones that bruce posted where they aren't referenced... Typical of the left to invent quotes that fit their world view... They probably came from athiest.com or something similar)
 
Look at our society when it was founded. NO one had locks on their doors... ever.
 
Could you do that today?
 
Church was a MAJOR part of society. Most legislators attended. Shoot the biggest church in the US was the church that held services in the CAPITAL building! During the time of Jefferson...
Hmm. Isn't Jefferson the guy that started the whole "separation" of church and state... Yet, he participated in the very services that today are banned...
 
Was he being hypocritical... Or maybe today's "brilliant" minds are actually changing his words to fit their world view eliminating church.
 
 
Another thought. Why does America have the best healthcare (before Obamacare) in the history of the world?
 
Look back at how hospitals started in the USA... Most still carry the names of the churches that founded them.
 
They weren't founded because of atheistic or deist supporters, as they typically only care about themselves if you look at their impact on society.
 
Instead they were started by believers in God and their help for their neighbor.
 
Without morality, and ethics our system falls into ruin. The government spends too much and overtax (enslave) our supposed "free" residents.
 
I can appreciate your stance, however, your post highlights my main problem with the Christian labeling dilemma.
 
Not labeling something 'Christian' doesn't change a thing.
 
I don't blame the decline in morals on the subtraction of the word 'Christian' from the nation. In fact, I'd say Christianity is far more prevalent in a form (not necessarily my form, but being fair here) now than ever in history. How many TV shows or movies do you see from the 40's, 50's, or 60's that bring up religion in a good light? How often did Lucy go to Church? How often did Dick van Dyke reverence Christ?
 
Yet now, it seems like Church is freely mentioned. And as far as morals go...I go back to the original dilemma. Up until the mid-60's (and much later in other places), segregation was a going rate. The south in particular was very racially heated.
 
And the only difference between movies and media then and now is that then they talked about fornication, murder, and all else you can imagine, now they're allowed to show it. I find the former more offensive-murder in particular had a very glossy coat put over it. How many people died ever episode of Gunsmoke or Bonanza? Yet, it was just a drop to the ground rather than the violent, bloody death that we (accurately) see now.
 
Moving away from media, how about the corruption in the government and law enforcemernt of the 50's and 60's? They may have worn their hair tidier and been more strict on how they spoke in front of ladies, but it didn't stop them from being woefully corrupt and biased.
 
I think that immorality has always been just as prevalent as it is now. I think that we're just more exposed now, thanks to everyone being so connected with the media and technology. I think that, if anything, we've moved to a spot where you can be openly Christian and not ridiculed by your classmates, coworkers, and family.
 
Again, I think it boils down to exposure. I just don't buy into the whole...the world is so much more evil now than back in the day...ideology.
 
I believe that evil is the same whether it be kept bottled up, or whether it presents itself. In God's eyes do you think the fact that people are openly evil is different from when they hid it in shame? It's all evil.
 
Do you think that a hospital that promotes God on its sign yet harbors corruption and lies on the inside is really glorifying to Him?
 
I don't think so. I don't think that slapping a Christian label on a corrupt government full of lies and almost every abomination imaginable would elevate this nation's status in the eyes of God.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2010 at 6:28pm
But wont the other God's get jealous?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2010 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Another thought. Why does America have the best healthcare (before Obamacare) in the history of the world?


I beg your pardon? If you actually believe this you are truly blind to what happens in your own country.

According to the CDC, in 2009 15.4% of Americans had no health insurance. That's over 46 million. More Americans have no health insurance than there are people living in many developed countries. I friggin' dare you to tell me that they have (or had, before OMGFMLOBAMA!) the 'best healthcare in the history of the world')

Those Americans with good, comprehensive coverage do indeed have fantastic health care. They can get among the best of what modern development has to offer. But no state with 46 million people lacking healthcare can be called the 'best in the history of the world'. Add to that the lack of emphasis on prevention - as evidenced by America's staggering obesity rates, for instance - and any claim to a spot on the healthcare podium for the United States is informed only by arrogance and hubris, not fact.

Insurance structure aside, if you are going to make a claim that America has the "Best healthcare in the world" you should at least try and back it up with something. 

I'm hard pressed to find a health care ranking list on any positive tangible that doesn't have France at No.1. 

What they lack in shaving they make up for in knowing how to structure a health care system. 
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