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jmac3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2010 at 6:39pm
USAF, I was not talking about your post. I was talking about this quote specifically.


Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Our country (although many try to disagree today) was founded on Judeo Christian values. We have watched as athiestic values have permiated the American system (the best in history) and the destruction that follows.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2010 at 6:58pm
Yeah, I went in and edited my response, but FE did sort of redeem himself from that as well.

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
Not to say athiests can't have those things too... But, looking at the large amount of corruption in politics/society and human behavior today and it is clear that the change to eliminate God from schools, and the humanistic focus has hurt the character and family units in our society.



I think it was less an attack on people who hold an atheistic belief(or the lack of said belief), but a comment on a loss of what a Christian would consider ideals.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2010 at 7:10pm
But it is not "clear" that the change to eliminate god has any effect whatsoever on character.

Why does it have anything to do with god? Just as many self described Christians, Muslims, whatever else have horrible character. Everyone is corrupt, it has nothing to do with atheism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2010 at 9:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2010 at 9:51pm

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
Not to say athiests can't have those things too... But, looking at the large amount of corruption in politics/society and human behavior today and it is clear that the change to eliminate God from schools, and the humanistic focus has hurt the character and family units in our society.

 [/QUOTE]

Are implying that politicians back in the day were devoid of corruption? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2010 at 10:28pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

 

All 3 major religions were actually included in the happenings.  The true tenet behind it all was that anyone who is a follower of the main religions on Earth has one thing in common with everyone, their belief in the great and merciful God(no matter by WHAT name you call him), and that it is everything that we have in common we should be focusing on to bring us together, not the differences.

Originally posted by scotchyscotch scotchyscotch wrote:

I have to say if this was based on religion and with Glenn Beck the way he is (political pundit) then it could have been a bit more tactful in it's approach. Sarah Palin probably should have steered clear of it.

I have removed the Christian church part but you could always replace it with religion in general. Surely anyone in American politics knows not to stir things up in the name of religion. 

(by major religions I assume it was Christian, Judaism(sp?) and Muslim?)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 7:44am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

What is an atheistic value?
 
 
Secular humanism... You know the religion being taught in schools today. "if it feels good, do it", as long as it doesn't "hurt" anyone else.
 
Aka "there is no "right or wrong" everything is relative...
 
Stuff like that.
 
further description?
 
 
 
 
 
Now, I know  you glossed over this study I posted in the post that generated your question. But, you really shouldn't as it directly ties into this discussion, and it is quite interesting.
 
 
"In one experiment, children between the ages of 5 and 9 were shown to a room and told to throw a Velcro ball at a Velcro dartboard. They were told that if they were able to hit the bull's-eye, they'd get a special prize. But this particular game had an unusual set of rules: The children were told that they had to throw from behind, they weren't allowed to throw the ball while facing the dartboard, and they had to use their nondominant hand rules that basically made it impossible for any of the children to win the game unless they cheated.

The children in the study were divided into three groups. The first group was left alone and told to play the game as best they could. The second were told the same, with one difference the children in the second group were told that there was someone special who was going to watch them. The experimenters showed the kids a picture of a very pretty woman a character that Bering had made up whose name was Princess Alice.

Princess Alice, the kids were told, had a magical power: Alice could make herself invisible. Then the children were shown a chair and were told that Alice was sitting in the chair and that Alice would watch them play the game after the researcher left. The third group of kids was told to play the game, but the researcher sat with them and simply never left the room at all.

The question that Bering sought to answer was this: Which group of children was least likely to cheat?

The children in the first group the completely unsupervised kids by far cheated the most. But what was surprising was the behavior of the second group.

The children who were under the impression that Princess Alice was in the room with them were just as likely to refrain from cheating as those children who were actually in the room with a physical real-life human being. A similar study Bering did with adults showed the same thing that they were dramatically less likely to cheat when they thought they were being observed by a supernatural presence."

Answer these questions to yourself.
 
1. Presented with an opportunity to cheat on a test, that really matters, and no one would ever know... Would you cheat in order to get a better grade?
 
2. If lying would keep you from a difficult situation, would you lie, if it hurt no one, and no one would ever know?
 
 
Today, our society has removed God from everything we do... and made it OK to openly mock and degrade anyone who vocally believes in God. (we see examples of this from you guys towards me very often)

This attack on "God" isn't actually an attack on God, it is a personal struggle that you are dealing with, as you were born with an understanding that life couldn't just happen. Someone had to design it. We all know deep in our subconscious that there is a God that Created us and the world. But, as many have moved to a secular humanistic belief system, and eliminated the "need" for god... You have a constant internal conflict going on. Man has a sin nature, and we are always tempted with doing wrong. Belief in God forces us to realize that no matter what we do, God is watching, and that impacts our decisions. Unless you elminate God from your beliefs... Then you can do as you wish, without that deterrant.
 
So you lash out, which if you studied psychology, you would understand that the things that most bother you about other people... Are the things that actually bother you about yourself... And seeing someone with a strong "God" foundation, would certainly force you to lash out because of your internal struggle.
 
But, having many in our society with similar "lack" of God beliefs... Then it becomes a group thing, and we all know that a group is much more easily "led" around than grounded individuals with strong moral convictions. Hence the reasons liberal groups tend to riot so quickly... As individuals they probably wouldn't. But as a group... they go off the deep end... because of their secular humanism world view, or "atheistic values".
They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 8:14am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


Secular humanism... You know the religion being taught in schools today. "if it feels good, do it", as long as it doesn't "hurt" anyone else.


Aka "there is no "right or wrong" everything is relative...


Stuff like that.

I LOVED that class in high school.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 8:18am
nice try...
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 8:58am
Here is a confrontation at the rally...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 9:12am
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

Benji I am the American Dream.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

nice try...
 
 
 


That reads like someone like you wrote it.

AKA: Someone who is saying it is being taught in school so they made a website to "prove it"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 12:53pm

Sad...

 
Here is another by the national center for science education (NCSC)
 
Are they credible enough for you?
 
 
 
You are a product of this indoctrination as you parrot it often.
 
"Defending the constitutional separation of church and state, secular humanists deplore the efforts of biblical fundamentalists or so-called scientific creationists to invade science classrooms and pressure textbook publishers with their religious myth and political agenda. We reject the teaching of religious fundamentalism as a viable alternative to organic evolution in science texts and biology classes. In fact, all religious beliefs and practices have evolved throughout human socio-cultural development. Clearly, a strict and literal interpretation of Genesis is merely a religious account for the origin of life that is not subject to testing by evidence, experience and experimentation. Consequently, biblical creationism is an ongoing and serious threat to science education, responsible research, critical thought and free inquiry. Authority and revelation are not reliable substitutes for the scientific method and logical procedure. In short, rigorous scrutiny shows evolutionary science and scriptural literalism, with its appeals to miraculous causes, to be opposing explanations for the appearance of all life forms on this planet. "
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 1:00pm
Please tell me what indoctrination I parrot?

Ready? Go


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

As was said, No religion=/=a religion.

Science is taught to learn, it isn't taught to make your kid become a scientist. No one ever says "God does not exist". Also, knowledge is best obtained using the scientific method. That is how all new things should be learned, maybe we should just take the Scientific out of the name.

The scientific method:

  1. Ask a question
  2. Background research
  3. Construct a hypothesis
  4. Test hypothesis
  5. Analyze data
  6. Communicate results.
What are you doing to learn new things if it isn't somewhat similar to this?

Are you opposed to learning about how the body works? What about how gravity works? That is a theory you know.

Also, you really need to step back if you think teaching evolution is a bad thing. It has been tested many times and is still just a theory. Enough tests have been done that make it relevant in a school. It will never be 100% proven.

Here is a little tidbit for you from an FAQ on this website: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-god.html

Q3. Does evolution contradict creationism?

There are two parts to creationism. Evolution, specifically common descent, tells us how life came to where it is, but it does not say why. If the question is whether evolution disproves the basic underlying theme of Genesis, that God created the world and the life in it, the answer is no. Evolution cannot say exactly why common descent chose the paths that it did.

You can believe in creationism and still learn about evolution. You can believe in God and believe in science. Science is not a faith to be believed in.
 
 
This is your post, so I assume this is your beliefs. Clearly you don't see the similarites between "science" and what is described in the secular humanism beliefs I posted, but they match up perfectly, as you clearly adopted the indoctrination as your own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 1:27pm
What is the point of the highlighted parts of my post? What are you trying to say?

I do not believe in god, therefore I do not believe in creationism. Creationism is religious, science is not religious no matter how many times you and OS say "NO RELIGION IS RELIGION"

Also, you are far more indoctrinated in your beliefs than I will ever be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 1:41pm
I see why he's back on his indoctrination rant: http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201009010042

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Sad...


Defending the constitutional separation of church and state, secular humanists deplore the efforts of biblical fundamentalists or so-called scientific creationists to invade science classrooms and pressure textbook publishers with their religious myth and political agenda. We reject the teaching of religious fundamentalism as a viable alternative to organic evolution in science texts and biology classes. In fact, all religious beliefs and practices have evolved throughout human socio-cultural development. Clearly, a strict and literal interpretation of Genesis is merely a religious account for the origin of life that is not subject to testing by evidence, experience and experimentation. Consequently, biblical creationism is an ongoing and serious threat to science education, responsible research, critical thought and free inquiry. Authority and revelation are not reliable substitutes for the scientific method and logical procedure. In short, rigorous scrutiny shows evolutionary science and scriptural literalism, with its appeals to miraculous causes, to be opposing explanations for the appearance of all life forms on this planet.


I dunno FE, it sounds reasonable enough to me. In short, they're stating that they don't wish our children to be force fed erroneous beliefs from over 500 years ago. Furthermore, being the staunch defender of the constitution that you make yourself out to be, I'd think that you'd stand by their efforts to prevent the mingling of church and state. If you want your children to grow up not understanding the scientific nature of our universe and be prepared for the challenges that lie ahead for humanity, go ahead and home school them or tell them to forget all the "nonsense" that they're being taught in school. But that wouldn't work for those who want creationism, rather than verifiable scientific fact, taught in the classroom because they know that their children will ultimately decide for themselves what is true and what is not, and they want to stack the deck so that their children will wind up as ignorant as themselves.

People can believe in both God and the laws of science. I do. How has my faith been tainted by the supposed evils of our education system? It hasn't. To quote one man who was almost burned at the stake for professing that the earth is indeed round, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 1:44pm

I don't know the point of you highlighting your post. You did that, not me.

 
I think you need to do some serious soul searching as you don't even realize your belief is secular humanism... Even when it is pointed out to you and you agree with the concepts and principles.
 
Guess Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
 
The difference between us is one of us knows who they are and what they believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2010 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
 
You are a product of this indoctrination as you parrot it often.
 
"Defending the constitutional separation of church and state, secular humanists deplore the efforts of biblical fundamentalists or so-called scientific creationists to invade science classrooms and pressure textbook publishers with their religious myth and political agenda. We reject the teaching of religious fundamentalism as a viable alternative to organic evolution in science texts and biology classes. In fact, all religious beliefs and practices have evolved throughout human socio-cultural development. Clearly, a strict and literal interpretation of Genesis is merely a religious account for the origin of life that is not subject to testing by evidence, experience and experimentation. Consequently, biblical creationism is an ongoing and serious threat to science education, responsible research, critical thought and free inquiry. Authority and revelation are not reliable substitutes for the scientific method and logical procedure. In short, rigorous scrutiny shows evolutionary science and scriptural literalism, with its appeals to miraculous causes, to be opposing explanations for the appearance of all life forms on this planet. "
 


I pretty much can't see anything wrong with this. Maybe they could have refrained from the terms "myth, invade" etc so that they didn't piss off the religious folks.

On a semi related note I don't think religion should be taught as fact anywhere that a child is required to go by law like school. (Perhaps with the exception of RE where all religions are covered equally as a way to promote tolerance and never taught as fact) Religion is entirely optional.

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