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Proposition 8 gets deep-sixed.

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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 11:48am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

well... lets look at who is arguing what.
 
Are "illegals" illegal?... And yet we don't punish them, or deport them in many cases (nun killed this week by a multiple CONVICTION illegal... why was he still here?)
 
Either they are breaking the law, or law doesn't matter...
 
Not sure what you're saying here? Just about this entire forum is in favor of stricter enforcement of immigrations laws along with a full reform of the system. The government is in the wrong on this issue, that doesn't affect this at all.
 
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
What about Men marrying girls?... It isn't even frowned upon today... Shoot women now marry young guys too...
 
So why would you think Nambla wouldn't be thrilled about this precident?...
 
It is just an age thing...
 
I'm not understanding this one either. I'm no marriage expert, but aren't there laws on the legal age of marriage consent, unless parents give permission? NAMBLA is an organizationn of pedos. Again, there's no way to draw the line between them and a 35 year old who marries an 18 year old. Odd and doomed to fail? Sure. Between two consenting adults? Yuppers.
 
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
Or abortion, everyone should be able to choose if they feel like killing their baby... it is just an age thing...
 
 
All of this is a moral decline, and yes, as Americans that is the problem. We either hold our own to a high standard, or we are lawless. 
 
I'm bypassing the abortion argument / thread jack.
 
Moral decline? I refer you to my previous post. Moral decline started with straight couples, and is continued by straight couples. Homosexuals are an extreme minority-I think around 5 or 6 percent of the population? That means we're blaming 5% for the actions of the 95%. Face it-the majority leads the tide. Straight folks have been immoral since time began, and we just kind accept them. They cheat on their spouses, gamble, abuse their children, abandon their families, do drugs, alcohol, engage in profane sexual acts, everything you can lay on a gay man and more. But we accept it. I have engaged and am engaging in several of those acts myself. Yet when I get married, no one will picket my wedding. So why should I feign some kind of moral outrage that a guy wants to take it from another guy? Or marry him?
 
What impacts children and animals is different. That's obvious by CONSENT LAWS.
 
My point is that, even on a discussion of morals, homosexual marriage isn't going to change anything. Abortion is  different issue. Those who don't support abortion view it as murder, that's a valid moral standpoint. Pedophilia? That's just universally accepted as wrong. But gay people marrying? They're going to be gay regardless, and their homoseuxality isn't making a negative impact on those around them. As long as they stay within the law, just as straight people do, they don't affect anyone.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 11:51am
http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/lawsuit-finds-church-discriminated-against-lesbian-couple/
 
 
 
 
 
If you think that there won't be people "forced" to allow gay marriages in their church... you are very much mistaken. We already have examples where Catholics have been forced to participate in Abortions or lose their jobs... Even though it is against their religion...
 
Your arguement doesn't hold water.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 11:56am
You have to be kidding. Do you even read what you post?

An actual church is not in question here, it's publicly-rentable beachfront property that happens to be owned by the church.

No way in hell is there ever going to be a gay marriage in a Catholic church. There just isn't going to be one. No one is asking for that. 


Edited by Benjichang - 05 August 2010 at 11:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 11:59am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/lawsuit-finds-church-discriminated-against-lesbian-couple/
 
 
 
 
 
If you think that there won't be people "forced" to allow gay marriages in their church... you are very much mistaken. We already have examples where Catholics have been forced to participate in Abortions or lose their jobs... Even though it is against their religion...
 
Your arguement doesn't hold water.
Although I can't believe I actually read something from the "Gay Christian Watch Movement," it doesn't really support your argument. The space owned by the church was advanced as "public." Furthermore, the church had been receiving tax breaks under the program that the space could not be discriminatory in nature. This is an issue of following through with a contract and private vs. public space, not the "liberal government advancing its will on the poor Christians."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:00pm
^exactly

If you're going to get tax breaks from public property, you have no right to discriminate who can use it on such grounds as sexuality. Hence, the term PUBLIC.

edit- It's complete crap if you think a church can get a tax write-off for providing the public with land to use, but then setting limitations on who can use it. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.


Edited by Benjichang - 05 August 2010 at 12:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:02pm
point proven...
 
If this passes, priests will be sued because of it... Unless they check their convictions at the door.
 
 
I already posted in this thread about the girl who was told she would be kicked out of college if she didn't "change her world view" to accept homosexuality.
 
So it happens now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

point proven...
 
 
No it wasn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickman98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:06pm

a prist can still refuse to do the service, they just cant refuse to allow them to use the building...huge difference.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:07pm
Let's review. Gays have the ability to marry within the confines of exsisting law. In that if a homosexual wants to marry the opposite sex as provided for within established law he has the ability, so he has the 'civil right' to marry within extablished law. If a homosexual wants to marry outside of parameters of established law he does not have that as a 'civil right' within the legal confines of that society. Again the farmer and the goat arguement, where is the line. Hypothetical agruement, a Man wants to marry a mentally handicapped individual, that mentally handicapped individual makes the statement that he/she agrees to this marriage, if the society states that even though the mentally handicapped individual made the decesion based on consenting adult, the society will not let the marriage happen based on medical evidense, has that society abridged the civil rights of either party?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 
My point is that, even on a discussion of morals, homosexual marriage isn't going to change anything. Abortion is  different issue. Those who don't support abortion view it as murder, that's a valid moral standpoint. Pedophilia? That's just universally accepted as wrong. But gay people marrying? They're going to be gay regardless, and their homoseuxality isn't making a negative impact on those around them. As long as they stay within the law, just as straight people do, they don't affect anyone.
 
 
 
Your world view needs a good overhaul...  It is conflicting with itself.
 
So you discriminate based on age, huh?... Because every member of nambla doesn't see the issue you see... as 'universally' accepted as wrong...
 
so that isn't "universally" is it?...
 
How is "gay" marriage going to help anything? they can have civil unions but marriage is a religous thing, Clearly. It is held in a church... with vows... before GOD...
 
Civil unions are the vehicle for people who go against the church...
 
But, nooo, they have to degrade "marriage" into their immoral ideal...
 
typical "tolerance" at work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Let's review. Gays have the ability to marry within the confines of exsisting law. In that if a homosexual wants to marry the opposite sex as provided for within established law he has the ability, so he has the 'civil right' to marry within extablished law. If a homosexual wants to marry outside of parameters of established law he does not have that as a 'civil right' within the legal confines of that society. Again the farmer and the goat arguement, where is the line. Hypothetical agruement, a Man wants to marry a mentally handicapped individual, that mentally handicapped individual makes the statement that he/she agrees to this marriage, if the society states that even though the mentally handicapped individual made the decesion based on consenting adult, the society will not let the marriage happen based on medical evidense, has that society abridged the civil rights of either party?
Man & Man is not the same as Man & Goat. Lets not pretend that the argument is similar. The love of two men or two women cannot be compared to the love to a man and something nonhuman that does not share the same capacity to communicate or love as the previous couple. We need to stop dehumanizing homosexuals as if they are the catalyst to bestiality or pedophilia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
 
 
How is "gay" marriage going to help anything? they can have civil unions but marriage is a religous thing, Clearly. It is held in a church... with vows... before GOD...
 
Civil unions are the vehicle for people who go against the church...
 
Once again...you're wrong. As stated before, my marriage was not in a church, not before God, and had no religious aspects in the service. But my MARRIAGE certificate and governmennt acceptance proves that it was not a civil union.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickman98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 
My point is that, even on a discussion of morals, homosexual marriage isn't going to change anything. Abortion is  different issue. Those who don't support abortion view it as murder, that's a valid moral standpoint. Pedophilia? That's just universally accepted as wrong. But gay people marrying? They're going to be gay regardless, and their homoseuxality isn't making a negative impact on those around them. As long as they stay within the law, just as straight people do, they don't affect anyone.
 
 
 
Your world view needs a good overhaul...  It is conflicting with itself.
 
So you discriminate based on age, huh?... Because every member of nambla doesn't see the issue you see... as 'universally' accepted as wrong...
 
so that isn't "universally" is it?...
 
How is "gay" marriage going to help anything? they can have civil unions but marriage is a religous thing, Clearly. It is held in a church... with vows... before GOD...
 
Civil unions are the vehicle for people who go against the church...
 
But, nooo, they have to degrade "marriage" into their immoral ideal...
 
typical "tolerance" at work.
im getting married, theres no church theres nothing about god even going to be mentioned. so how is it a religous thing?  we arent going to go get civil unioned, we are going to get married, with a license and a name change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Let's review. Gays have the ability to marry within the confines of exsisting law.
I thought the whole point of prop 8 was to ban gay marriage...so....

  
Quote Hypothetical agruement, a Man wants to marry a mentally handicapped individual, that mentally handicapped individual makes the statement that he/she agrees to this marriage, if the society states that even though the mentally handicapped individual made the decesion based on consenting adult, the society will not let the marriage happen based on medical evidense, has that society abridged the civil rights of either party?
Don't see how this really relates. Either the person has enough mental ability to consent or not. It depends on the patient's mental condition. There are plenty of mentally handicapped people who have mild enough symptoms, where I believe legitimate consent can take place.

How this relates to gay marriage is beyond me. 

As far as I'm concerned, what happens between 2 consenting adults (that are mentally fit to consent) is nobody's business as long as no one else's rights are being infringed upon.

Shouldn't the government stay out of the bedroom? It baffles me to no end that conservatives, being the champions of "small government", want to regulate the private lives of citizens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:28pm
So, lets look at some facts.
 
 
did we all evolve as described in evolution?...
 
I would guess, most on this board agree...
 
So, what is the difference between man, and animal?... A few trillion years of evolution... right?...
 
Does an athiest belive in God?... Nope... Then does an atheist believe in absolute authority?...
 
Nope, the athiest viewpoint is that everyone should be able to choose whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm someone else...
 
Right?...
 
 
 
So man is just an animal, (evolved of course) and marriage (a concept that comes from Adam and Eve in the Bible, which was introduced to us as an example from God... you know THE absolute authority...)
 
 Then, from your perspective on life, if man is just some sort of animal who evolved, and if there’s no absolute authority, then marriage is whatever you want to define it to be—if you can get away with it in the culture you live in.
It could be two men, two women or one man and ten women; in fact, it doesn’t even have to be a man with another human—it could be a man with an animal.

Without an absolute authority, marriage, or any other aspect of how to live in society, is determined on the basis of opinion and ultimately could be anything one decides—if the culture as a whole will allow you to get away with this.

 

And that is the issue.



Edited by FreeEnterprise - 05 August 2010 at 12:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:28pm
The moral equivialant, even though they are consenting there is an exsisting law that puts perameters on the 'marriage' between the two used as an example.
Benji you need to read the whole concept, Gays can marry the oposite sex as prescribed by law just like everone else, so no Civil Right is being violated.
Homosexuality is aborant to the 'rules' of nature and with the natural need for a specis to reproduce. Within nature there are a few asexual organisms, and a few that will perform same sex acts, but within the natural world many specis that sees same sex 'mating' will usually seperate those 'offenders' from the pack. The ape family has been seen to kill 'offenders', baboons have no tolerance within thier communities for 'homosexuals' within thier society.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:30pm
Funny, I don't recall those who are complaining about the reversal of Prop 8 via judgement complaining one single bit when it was about the Chicago handgun ban. 

As a matter of fact, I seem to remember the opposite. 


"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

So, lets look at some facts.
 
 
Does an athiest belive in God?... Nope... Then does an atheist believe in absolute authority?...
 
Nope, the athiest viewpoint is that everyone should be able to choose whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm someone else...
 
Right?...
 
Wrong. That's not what every atheist believes. You've also skipped over previously refuted arguments to give everyone a "biology" lesson.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

The ape family has been seen to kill 'offenders', baboons have no tolerance within thier communities for 'homosexuals' within thier society.

So we're basing our laws off of baboons now? 

Also, as has been asked a dozen times before, if you are using the "They cannot have children" point as a reason to outlaw homosexuals getting married, then do you also support the disallowance of marriages of folks who are steril? 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2010 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

The ape family has been seen to kill 'offenders', baboons have no tolerance within thier communities for 'homosexuals' within thier society.

So we're basing our laws off of baboons now? 

Also, as has been asked a dozen times before, if you are using the "They cannot have children" point as a reason to outlaw homosexuals getting married, then do you also support the disallowance of marriages of folks who are steril? 
My best friend is an atheist as well. He just got married and he and his wife are not going to have children. He has a marriage license.
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