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Why the fear?

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High Voltage View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:



The anti-Tea Party (for lack of a better term) are not peacefully assembling to express and support their views.  They are assembling for the specific purpose of disrupting/interfering with/damaging the reputation of a different group with an opposing view.  (They are in fact, meeting to do exactly what you are accusing OS and his group of doing.)

So in other words, they're protesting.

All this speculation over what hasn't even happened yet, shall we wait and see if they do become violent or deny them the right to oppose the tea party's protest before they have the chance to slaughter innocent civilians?

Will this protest happen on public or private property?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:



The anti-Tea Party (for lack of a better term) are not peacefully assembling to express and support their views.  They are assembling for the specific purpose of disrupting/interfering with/damaging the reputation of a different group with an opposing view.  (They are in fact, meeting to do exactly what you are accusing OS and his group of doing.)

So in other words, they're protesting.

All this speculation over what hasn't even happened yet, shall we wait and see if they do become violent or deny them the right to oppose the tea party's protest before they have the chance to slaughter innocent civilians?

Will this protest happen on public or private property?
 
 
actually, there have been protests against the tea party members (these people were attacked for wearing Sarah Palin buttons)... where people were injured. But, if the media doesn't make a big deal, then it didn't happen...
 
 
amirite!
 
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

I wonder if this story will get national press...
 
Naa...
 
 
"spitting" is much more newsworthy.
 
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High Voltage View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 1:46pm
Funny, FE, I thought the topic was the tea party event OS will attend tomorrow. Who got injured at OS' tea party protest? Any news links to the aftermath of the protest that has not happened yet?

Nobody here is condoning violence btw. Anyone becoming violent at a protest is doing it wrong.


Edited by High Voltage - 14 April 2010 at 1:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

Anyone becoming violent at a protest is doing it wrong.


And we all agree on that, but FE insists that we don't.
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oldsoldier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 2:42pm
I am not going to be the violent one, but I am pretty sure our black hooded anachist friends are not thinking the same. In a co-ordination meeting with Oneonta Police and the State Police we 'Rolling Thunder' members will ensure the 'security' of the podium from 'infiltrators' by maintaining a buffer perimeter. The Police will maintain a outer perimeter. We are missioned to video tape any confrontation and present said tape to the Police immediately so they can apprehend the 'infiltrator'. I am confidant that we will not be the instigators, it is as per thier website thier mission to instigate violance to discredit the movement, and disrupt the event.
I am a Road Captian for the event, and will use my 'command voice' to make it clear our intent to any who feel it is thier 'right' to underestimate us.
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Mack View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 2:52pm
OS, you mentioned a website related to the perpetrators . . . do you have a link?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

I am not going to be the violent one, but I am pretty sure our black hooded anachist friends are not thinking the same. In a co-ordination meeting with Oneonta Police and the State Police we 'Rolling Thunder' members will ensure the 'security' of the podium from 'infiltrators' by maintaining a buffer perimeter. The Police will maintain a outer perimeter. We are missioned to video tape any confrontation and present said tape to the Police immediately so they can apprehend the 'infiltrator'. I am confidant that we will not be the instigators, it is as per thier website thier mission to instigate violance to discredit the movement, and disrupt the event.
I am a Road Captian for the event, and will use my 'command voice' to make it clear our intent to any who feel it is thier 'right' to underestimate us.


lol, underestimating the tea party movement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 3:07pm
What, exactly, has the Tea Party movement accomplished so far?

Now, I agree with some of the ideas they have, but first and foremost, they're going about it all wrong.  Playing to the right wing will not gain you political clout.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:



The anti-Tea Party (for lack of a better term) are not peacefully assembling to express and support their views.  They are assembling for the specific purpose of disrupting/interfering with/damaging the reputation of a different group with an opposing view.  (They are in fact, meeting to do exactly what you are accusing OS and his group of doing.)

So in other words, they're protesting.

All this speculation over what hasn't even happened yet, shall we wait and see if they do become violent or deny them the right to oppose the tea party's protest before they have the chance to slaughter innocent civilians?


The intentional liberal density is quite thick today.

Let's recap with selected information from earlier in the thread.

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

. . . left wing 'radicals' are intending to infiltrate the event and carry signs and make comments to local media in order to 'confirm' in the minds of America who we Tea Party Members are.

This is not exercising one's freedom of speech by protesting; it is impersonating members of an opposing group for the sole purpose of behaving in a manner than discredits the group in question.

 Our local 'Rolling Thunder' group has been asked to 'escort' any found infiltrators from the site, and to cover from view any infiltrator groups using American Flags and the noise of the Bikes.

No mention made of infringing upon anyone's right to free speech mentioned here.  Merely a security presence charged not with silencing opposition but removing disruptive elements either within the group itself or those that infiltrated the group specifically to create a false image of the Tea Party people.

NO VIOLENCE...cameras will be covering all of our actions per our legal advisor, lets see how peacefull and non-radical our leftist friends really are.

Specific plan calls for no violence and the use of film to document record activities against false claims.

There are signs stating 'INFILTRAITOR' with arrows pointing to them so the media can not miss them in thier coverage, and we will be close enough so the close in shot used before to isolate only the 'Racist' Tea Party Member will not be possible. and our 'INFITRATOR' sign carried are to stand next to any inflamitory signage carriers, as they are 'escorted' or contained.

Steps taken to specifically identify those who are legitimate Tea Party members and those who are only disguised as such to besmirch the Tea Party image.



Summation (and opinion) the anti-Tea Party folks got caught out on the unsubstantiated charges of racism and other hate crimes they levied against earlier Tea Partys and have decided to go provide some of this on their own while disguised as Tea Party members so the media will have something to show in support of their claims.  The Tea Party folks became aware of it and are taking steps to prevent such action.  The more liberal members of the forum see nothing wrong with the protest infiltrators planning to/implementing their plan to commit hateful action (possibly hate crimes) as long it is for the lofty and noble purpose of making the Tea-Party look bad but also believe that any action taken to prevent such infiltration is a violation of the "Anti's" right to freedom of speech.

A few explanatory notes/thoughts:

  • This is not a "freedom of speech" or constitutional issue.  Congress is making no law abridging anyone's freedom of speech here.  (Neither is any other branch of the government.)
  • I am also fairly certain that there is no interpretation of "freedom of speech" that covers pretending to belong to another group for the sole purpose of acting like a jerk to make them look bad.
    • As an example, consider if the KKK had infiltrated peaceful civil rights protests in the '60s for the sole purpose of discrediting the civil rights movements through their actions/speech being associated with the movement.  (Yes, it is a laughable scenario; but is also essentially the same thing.  Those who doubt should look at the effort certain private and public organizations put in to investigating and discrediting specific leaders/members of the movements of the time.
  • The hypocrisy on the forum is also exceptionally thick today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 3:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 3:50pm
Mack, fair enough; my charge of infringement is misplaced for various reasons. I chose the wrong words to do so, but my point was that it's strange for a self-proclaimed champion of the constitution and who usually considers himself to be on the moral high ground on most matters to resort to actions that prevent people exercising what can be considered the hallmark of a free democracy, and then justify it with "they're doing it too."

But:
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

The more liberal members of the forum see nothing wrong with the protest infiltrators planning to/implementing their plan to commit hateful action (possibly hate crimes)

Give me the line of logic that ends with the conclusion that we see nothing wrong with what the Anti-Tea Party (ATP I guess) is doing, please. As I see it, there is a discontinuity between what we are noting about the actions of the Tea Party and supporting acts that incite violence, but I'm open to criticism. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 3:56pm
Apparently, they don't like people copying stuff from their site.  However, a couple of screen shots put back together in MSPaint (and reduced 50%) shows what they're up too quite well.  Note the part circled in green, that seems more like interfering with someone else's exercise of free speech as opposed to actually exercising it themselves. 

The fact that they feel the need to infiltrate and sabotage does support OS's point about fearing the Tea Party.  (If it was such a joke, why bother messing it up?)

The spamming of the associated forum by opponents (anti-anti-Tea Party people?) is really mature as well.  However, it does support another point made by both OS and fe; the language used by the spammers on the half-dozen or so posts I checked out is definitely much less foul/hate filled than that used by those responding to them.  (Not that it justifies the spamming . . . but it may be indicative of a difference in maturity level.)




Edited by Mack - 14 April 2010 at 3:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 4:02pm
I think the Tea Party is laughably stupid, but I also think infiltrating them HUGELY devalues the opposing movement. I'm not sure why this forum is consistantly stuck on a "with us or against us" mentality. Just because I think the tea party is wrong does not mean I think the anti-tea party infiltration is right. Pretty simple really.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NiQ-Toto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

I think the Tea Party is laughably stupid, but I also think infiltrating them HUGELY devalues the opposing movement. I'm not sure why this forum is consistantly stuck on a "with us or against us" mentality. Just because I think the tea party is wrong does not mean I think the anti-tea party infiltration is right. Pretty simple really.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 4:08pm
looks like a dozen tea party members showed up in boston... Maybe a few more than a dozen...
 
Naa.
 
 
It will be amusing to see the "crowd count" by the media...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:


Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

The more liberal members of the forum see nothing wrong with the protest infiltrators planning to/implementing their plan to commit hateful action (possibly hate crimes)

Give me the line of logic that ends with the conclusion that we see nothing wrong with what the Anti-Tea Party (ATP I guess) is doing, please. As I see it, there is a discontinuity between what we are noting about the actions of the Tea Party and supporting acts that incite violence, but I'm open to criticism. 


ATP is much easier to type, I'll stick with that as well.  As for why I made my statement regarding forum opinion, the logic was based on posts like this.

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

I am also attending a Tea Party. I will be one of these left wing radicals


Or this; which seems to indicate the ATP actions are okay while the TP taking action to prevent such disruption wouldn't be.  The additional question regarding the constitution would also seem to show a failure to understand that the constitution applies to everyone; not just the side one agrees with.

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:


So you plan on responding to them though an infringement of their right to peacefully assemble and and an infringement on their right to free speech?

Why do you hate the constitution?


On an unrelated point MBro and OS got to discussing Social Security on the previous page and MBro made a comment about how it works.  I feel the need to point out that Social Security doesn't work.  The original intent for the program was for the funds to be invested and grow through the magic of compound interest.  The problem was this was done at a time of government surpluses so no thought was given to developing any special protection for these funds and they just went into the general fund.  The result is that the government (under administrations from both sides of the political spectrum) have found it easier to spend these monies than push for tax increases or (god forbid) actually limit spending.  The problem is that while the basic funds can be replaced, the interest can't.  The eventual end result will be too many people drawing and not enough paying which will lead to failure of the system.

Okay, lets get back on topic.

Choop, while I haven't decided if the Tea Party is stupid yet, I do agree with the rest of your statement about devaluing the opposition.  (Potentially even opposition that is not associated with the infiltration.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 4:12pm
I always find it weird how much crowd counts vary from source to source, its silly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 4:12pm
^^^ They're activists . . . not mathematicians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Grimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 4:41pm
I guess my real question here is:  how can you tell the infiltrators from the real teabaggers?
 
As far as I can tell, the entire "tea party" is a walking demonstration of Poe's Law.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:



Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

I am also attending a Tea Party. I will be one of these left wing radicals


Or this; which seems to indicate the ATP actions are okay while the TP taking action to prevent such disruption wouldn't be. 



You extracted that out of my post? May I ask how?
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