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Collateral Murder

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choopie911 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 2:36pm
Also, saying reporters are fair game because they're not "our" reporters is just stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThatGuitarGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by mod98commando mod98commando wrote:

Besides, journalists are unarmed aside from a camera and a pen so that alone means they shouldn't be shot at


But the pen is mightier than the sword!


You're sitting on a goldmine Trebek


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

But the pen is mightier than the sword!

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

the pen is mightier than the sword!

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

the pen is mightier!

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

pen is!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mod98commando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by mod98commando mod98commando wrote:

Besides, journalists are unarmed aside from a camera and a pen so that alone means they shouldn't be shot at


But the pen is mightier than the sword!


You're sitting on a goldmine Trebek


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

The reporter who covered the insurgents that shot a US Serviceman in that 'sniper video' could the US reporter who shot that footage from the aspect of the insurgent be considered under treason laws.


Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

When there are ALWAYS two sides to a conflict and both sides have cheerleaders media members helping the "cause".


Well look here. We have a disparity.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 6:33pm
Well could he be charged under treason Laws in assisting and/or not preventing armed action against a US Servicemember in a time of war. UCMJ says yes, and is subject to military tribuneral, as precident was established in 1943, and reafirmed in 1946 during the trials of 'Axis Sally' and several other Americans who willingly provided 'aid and comfort' to the enemy. Several Vietnam POW's who 'turned' in the Camps were also charged under the same UCMJ precident. Heraldo Rivera got close (and spanked) for 'putting over the open airwaves' the location of the unit he was embedded with, and detailing the operation they were on, prior to 'approval' from the proper authorities. And ask any respectable 'Green Zone' reporters, about the many over there who use 'surrogates' ie locals of dubious political relieability to gather thier stories, with a potential 'slant', while they stay safe in thier hotel suites. The sniper video was more than likely one of those incidences and the 'reporter' was not willing to man up and take the hit on his career.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

provided 'aid and comfort' to the enemy.


Of which, recording history is not.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Well could he be charged under treason Laws in assisting and/or not preventing armed action against a US Servicemember in a time of war. UCMJ says yes, and is subject to military tribuneral, as precident was established in 1943, and reafirmed in 1946 during the trials of 'Axis Sally' and several other Americans who willingly provided 'aid and comfort' to the enemy. Several Vietnam POW's who 'turned' in the Camps were also charged under the same UCMJ precident. Heraldo Rivera got close (and spanked) for 'putting over the open airwaves' the location of the unit he was embedded with, and detailing the operation they were on, prior to 'approval' from the proper authorities. And ask any respectable 'Green Zone' reporters, about the many over there who use 'surrogates' ie locals of dubious political relieability to gather thier stories, with a potential 'slant', while they stay safe in thier hotel suites. The sniper video was more than likely one of those incidences and the 'reporter' was not willing to man up and take the hit on his career.

She was charged on eight counts, convicted on only one, and that was for a broadcast just before d-day where she acted the role of a mother whose son died on the beaches. That was not news reporting. 

The news media collectively enjoy considerable and critical freedom in publishing because their role as part of the system of checks and balances is essential in the preservation of a free democratic state. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 7:23pm
Shaky definition under UCMJ. "Axis Sally" was used as a propagandist, Gerald Mall caught in Germany photographed many U-Boat attacks from the conning tower of the U-boat on Allied Shipping, recording history as you put it, or providing 'propaganda news' for the German war effort, and was charged and convicted under UCMJ for 'aid and comfort'. This and many cases of US Citizens caught in Germany, Japan, and Italy thought they were reporting the war, but post war were brought under UCMJ charges for 'aid and comfort'.

Were the two Rueters 'reporters' surrogates under hire for a 'Green Zone Commando' as the reporters who do not leave the wire are called by US Forces. And was the assignment to cover an armed act of any type by the weapon toting personnel seen in the video, do you think Rueters will man up to that little tidbit?
Was the 'sniper shot' recording history, or an act of treason?

I find the whole concept of surrogate reporters questionable, for the political leanings of these local surrogates is questionable at best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Shaky definition under UCMJ. "Axis Sally" was used as a propagandist, Gerald Mall caught in Germany photographed many U-Boat attacks from the conning tower of the U-boat on Allied Shipping, recording history as you put it, or providing 'propaganda news' for the German war effort, and was charged and convicted under UCMJ for 'aid and comfort'. This and many cases of US Citizens caught in Germany, Japan, and Italy thought they were reporting the war, but post war were brought under UCMJ charges for 'aid and comfort'.

Were the two Rueters 'reporters' surrogates under hire for a 'Green Zone Commando' as the reporters who do not leave the wire are called by US Forces. And was the assignment to cover an armed act of any type by the weapon toting personnel seen in the video, do you think Rueters will man up to that little tidbit?
Was the 'sniper shot' recording history, or an act of treason?

I find the whole concept of surrogate reporters questionable, for the political leanings of these local surrogates is questionable at best.

It's also not the second world war anymore, and America's expeditionary military actions are significantly more controversial and prone to moral hazard. Is some 'aid and comfort' given to the enemy? Yeah, probably- but I balance that against the service of the public interest by making sure Americans are cognizant of what is done in their name, and what their soldiers are actually involved in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


Was the 'sniper shot' recording history, or an act of treason?


Recording history.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 8:02pm
SO you find no moral objection of you personally under 'assignment' of standing next to an insurgent as he attempts to kill and American Servicemember, and all you would do is record it and insert your 'report' for viewing by the American people?

And people call the military sick.

Just an added point, if one of my 'team' takes a hit and I could ID the shooter and anyone in 'support' of the shooter, press credentials are not 'bulletproof' and I would feel absolutely no guilt in my after action search if I find an 'American' newsman in 'support' of the shooter, shot repeatedly with 5.56. And my report would so reflect that the 'newsman' was observed in 'support' by position or percieved action, of the shooter.

Comman sense vs Pulitzer.......you decide.

Edited by oldsoldier - 07 April 2010 at 8:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

SO you find no moral objection of you personally under 'assignment' of standing next to an insurgent as he attempts to kill and American Servicemember, and all you would do is record it and insert your 'report' for viewing by the American people?

And people call the military sick.

Just an added point, if one of my 'team' takes a hit and I could ID the shooter and anyone in 'support' of the shooter, press credentials are not 'bulletproof' and I would feel absolutely no guilt in my after action search if I find an 'American' newsman in 'support' of the shooter, shot repeatedly with 5.56. And my report would so reflect that the 'newsman' was observed in 'support' by position or percieved action, of the shooter.

Comman sense vs Pulitzer.......you decide.

He did not say he personally would do so. Pull your head out of your fifth point of contact and stop making stupid assumptions.

However, I see no moral difference between a reporter following insurgents and a reporter embedded with an American combat team. Both are in 'support' of one belligerent party or the other. I personally applaud reporters who reject 'embedding' and who report independently. In any case, both have also implicitly accepted all the hazards associated with being immediately present in a combat situation, and so both are legitimate collateral damage if they are killed accidentally. If a reporter is stupid enough to be in a fight to get a story, well, I admire his dedication if not his common sense. But it's no more wrong for a reporter to report on the actions of the enemy than it is to report on the actions of friendly forces, because both have a direct bearing on what it is that the American government is doing on its citizens' behalf. 

If, however, you deliberately engaged an individual who was unarmed, not actually aiding the enemy, and who you were aware was a member of the press, you would be no better than any other murderer. A professional soldier is bound by the Geneva Conventions, which as you well know prohibit the deliberate targeting of civilians who are not combatants.


Edited by brihard - 07 April 2010 at 8:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

SO you find no moral objection of you personally under 'assignment' of standing next to an insurgent as he attempts to kill and American Servicemember, and all you would do is record it and insert your 'report' for viewing by the American people?


Knowing you might be in an extremely uncomfortable position like that is the risk you take when you take the assignment. There is a reason only a few people are actually gutsy enough to be a true war reporter.


Quote Just an added point, if one of my 'team' takes a hit and I could ID the shooter and anyone in 'support' of the shooter, press credentials are not 'bulletproof' and I would feel absolutely no guilt in my after action search if I find an 'American' newsman in 'support' of the shooter, shot repeatedly with 5.56. And my report would so reflect that the 'newsman' was observed in 'support' by position or percieved action, of the shooter.


And as I've pointed out with my previous comments in this thread, if the reporter is going to take on a story that puts them in that position, in a war zone, they have to accept the risk of that happening. If you are going to talk to both sides of the conflict, you understand that both sides are just as willing to shoot you dead for being where you are.

I don't know what you're trying to do with that point.



Quote Comman sense vs Pulitzer.......you decide.


Your misplaced anger is slightly disturbing.


Edited by agentwhale007 - 07 April 2010 at 8:19pm
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

I personally applaud reporters who reject 'embedding' and who report independently. In any case, both have also implicitly accepted all the hazards associated with being immediately present in a combat situation, and so both are legitimate collateral damage if they are killed accidentally.


This is the truth. It's why there are so few people who are willing to actually go this route.

When you work for almost any wire service you choose to go this path, you pretty much sign away the right for compensation - either to you or your family - if you actually get blown up.

However, you also get more money for filing it.

Granted, I'd wager that there are very few, if any, independent warzone reporters who are doing it for the money. They are far more motivated by the hopes of becoming part of historical documentation. At least the ones I know.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

I personally applaud reporters who reject 'embedding' and who report independently. In any case, both have also implicitly accepted all the hazards associated with being immediately present in a combat situation, and so both are legitimate collateral damage if they are killed accidentally.


This is the truth. It's why there are so few people who are willing to actually go this route.

When you work for almost any wire service you choose to go this path, you pretty much sign away the right for compensation - either to you or your family - if you actually get blown up.

However, you also get more money for filing it.

Granted, I'd wager that there are very few, if any, independent warzone reporters who are doing it for the money. They are far more motivated by the hopes of becoming part of historical documentation. At least the ones I know.

You *must* be familiar with Robert Fisk?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


You *must* be familiar with Robert Fisk?


Indeed.

Fantastic reporter. His books are also informative as to Middle East affairs.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


You *must* be familiar with Robert Fisk?


Indeed.

Fantastic reporter. His books are also informative as to Middle East affairs.

Yup 'The Great War for Civilization' is one of my favourite books. I don't agree with all his political views by any means, but the man's got genuine integrity and courage. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

SO you find no moral objection of you personally under 'assignment' of standing next to an insurgent as he attempts to kill and American Servicemember, and all you would do is record it and insert your 'report' for viewing by the American people?


I'm pretty sure that journalists don't sign up to go overseas and report to get to kill people. You may be fine doing so, others are not. Their profession trumps your opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2010 at 9:04pm
I still have a disconnect Bri. Both of us having been in combat zones, abiet in a differat time, the question stands. One of your 'team' takes a small arms hit, you localize the bad guy by sound of report of the weapon, you see one in a low position with what appears to be an AK or SVD, and another standing above him, peering around the corner pointing a 'tube' at your position. Would you engage both targets, and by the current ROE is that a 'good shoot'. I did not intentionally under my defined ROE and Forces ROE, 'intentionally' engage a 'non-combatant'. And if one of my troops did the same, and I was the 'investigating' NCO, I would find it a 'good shoot' based on what I know of combat and the actions under the emotional stress of combat. My report would read that the non-combatant did present a presumption of
being hostile, by pointing his camera at friendly forces, which from a distance did under conditions presented did resemble a RPG launcher or small recoiless rifle or tube fired missile launcher.

War as we know is messy, and mistakes are made. But troops under fire while trained will react as trained, and under ROE that are today more political than practicle in the current combat situations presented.
Son is back over there and doing convoy's again. As an O-3 Infantry Company Commander, he can not micro-manage and 'order' troops to react contrary to training and ROE's as he understand them. If you are in a combat zone and present a threat in a 'hostile fire' enviornment, the consequences of your actions are no longer legally under his pervue. And yes he has had a few incidents since January, and we do talk extensivly about them as we can.

Edited by oldsoldier - 07 April 2010 at 9:09pm
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