Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Collateral Murder

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 7>
Author
oldsoldier View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Frequent target of infantile obsessives

Joined: 10 June 2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6544
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 6:16pm
During Desert Storm our imbedded reporter had a nasty habit. If and when we got shot at, he would stand up and profile himself, usually on top of our sole duece and a half, better camera angle I guess, but just made him a better target for the bad guys, and easier to shoot. He thought his press credentials made him immortal or something. We were taking bets on when he would collect that 'to whom it may concern' magic bullet. Never did, but he sure did deserve at least a 'I am a big dummy, wounding'.
Back to Top
nickman98 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Et Tu, Nickman?

Joined: 14 July 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4350
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickman98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:


The thing that disturbs me the most is how the shooter expresses no regret in the fact that he nearly killed two kids. He's got a point, but you'd think he would feel bad. And maybe that's why that justification was said.
these guys are trained to not feel, if you let guilt or remorse into your thought process while taking on a mission then things can go terribly wrong. sure is it callous, yes. did he expect it to get plastered all over the net? no.
its terrible this happened, but its the cost of war. should we be there? should we be anywhere? no and no. but we are, this is how its gonna be.
Back to Top
agentwhale007 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Forum's Vladimir Lenin

Joined: 20 June 2002
Location: GNV FLA
Status: Offline
Points: 11696
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

During Desert Storm our imbedded reporter had a nasty habit. If and when we got shot at, he would stand up and profile himself, usually on top of our sole duece and a half, better camera angle I guess, but just made him a better target for the bad guys, and easier to shoot. He thought his press credentials made him immortal or something. We were taking bets on when he would collect that 'to whom it may concern' magic bullet. Never did, but he sure did deserve at least a 'I am a big dummy, wounding'.


The photography side of journalism is already not known for being the sane or safe side. Or rational side. They're the ones who will stick out their neck to danger just to get a good shot. My own photographers, even at the college paper level, have waded through known gator-infested swamps, gone into the crime-ridden crack neighborhoods, and got themselves into all other sort of situations just because "Hey it will make a cool shot."

Let me do an analogy for you I think you'll get:

Within the news media, reporters and writers are your Army folks.

Photographers are your Marines.

...And copy editors are your Air Force, but that is a different story.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




Back to Top
choopie911 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Commie Canuck

Joined: 01 June 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 30745
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 6:40pm
I still think its nuts that my cousin went with a Stryker brigade in Iraq as a reporter.
Back to Top
oldsoldier View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Frequent target of infantile obsessives

Joined: 10 June 2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6544
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 6:52pm
The other side of the story would be from those of us who have seen combat, and the mental processes of the moment. I am in a high threat enviornment, and I see movement, immediately the adreniline starts flowing, I see what appears at a distance to be a weapon. And unfortuanately the other objects in the threat area become secondary in the field of vision in your mind, it is a natural act, tunnel vision to the threat.
And it is a well know fact within the military community that this current crop of insurgents are known to use innocent civilians as knowing or unknowing 'cover' in thier operations. They are not stupid, and to get US or allied forces to fire on 'innocents' is great for Al-Jezera, and they will manage to cut the insurgents from that news video scampering away after dileberatly drawing fir on the civilians.
I find it interesting in the news world, were in 1944 the death of 50,000 civilians in an RAF bombing raid of a German city and ensueing 'firestorm' is seen as just, and one farming killed in a raid on an insurgent facility is seen as a 'war crime'. War has never been a spectator sport, and if civilians knowing support or voluntarily stay in a known warzone, they as well as the media must understand that 'colatteral damage' has been around since organized warfare began, and a few forces actually put civilians purposely in the line of fire for political or tactical advantage in a battle.
Back to Top
oldsoldier View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Frequent target of infantile obsessives

Joined: 10 June 2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6544
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 6:54pm
BTW I actually thought of driving for KBR, just to go over there and see for myself. Maybe be a reporter for whoever, a wealth of combat expieriance to see me through, and possibly a differant approach to the current crop of 'opinionated' journalists over there. I am an adreniline 'junkie' and miss the 'rush'.
Back to Top
brihard View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Making stuff up

Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 10156
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 7:09pm
On the one hand, I want to go over it several times over and pick it apart, but I'm trying to place myself in the pilot's/gunner's seat- seeing everything once, as it happens, uninformed by hindsight and with the video screen unenhanced.

Frankly, I think it's a series of compounded errors on both sides. The reporters ought to have thought about what they might look like from a distance. Cameras on slings can easily look like weapons. When one is shouldering a camera and leaning out from behind a wall filming in the direction of an attack helicopter in a war zone, that is a DUMB IDEA, because it looks exactly like someone with an RPG. While I am not privy to the specific ROEs the pilots were operating under, I can see how firing on the man with the object on his shoulder aimed at the helicopter is justifiable, and in the context of that perceived threat, other individuals with slung objects appear to be valid targets.

With that being said, after the initial attack, I cannot see the justification in continuing to fire on the wounded man, particularly once being picked up by individuals with no evident weapons in sight. It's not unreasonable to think that several minutes after a shooting has occurred, good Samaritans might come to pick up the wounded- particularly in a place like Baghdad. But again, I don't know what the Americans' specific ROEs, nor do I know what the threat climate had been like in that particular area in the days leading up to this incident. When the van came to pick up the wounded man I could not see weapons in evidence on the ground, in individuals' hands, or being picked up- logical, of course, since in hindsight it appears there were none on the scene; merely slung cameras. Again, not being privy to the ROEs I'm unsure whether a previous perceived threat was enough to continue the engagement against new individuals who had entered the scene to render aid, though no ROEs I'm personally familiar or experienced with have authorized the engagement of individuals removing wounded if weapons were not in evidence.

I did not see the kids in the van until they were specifically highlighted in the enhanced replays. I do not believe the pilots did either.

The video has clearly been edited for brevity. I would like to see it in its uncut entirety. I have my thoughts, as above, but I'm reserving final judgment.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
Back to Top
choopie911 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Commie Canuck

Joined: 01 June 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 30745
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 7:17pm
The full 38 minute video was also apparently released. I think its the torrent link under "download" on their site.
Back to Top
Mack View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Has no impulse! control

Joined: 13 January 2004
Location: 2nd Circle
Status: Offline
Points: 9815
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

...And copy editors are your Air Force, but that is a different story.


Hey!  Just what are you insinuating there?
Back to Top
ammolord View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 July 2007
Location: Minot, ND
Status: Offline
Points: 1832
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ammolord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

...And copy editors are your Air Force, but that is a different story.


Hey!  Just what are you insinuating there?
PSN Tag: AmmoLord
XBL: xXAmmoLordXx


~Minister of Tinkering With Things That Go "BOOM!"(AKA Minister of Munitions)~
Back to Top
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 7:46pm
I agree with Bri -- not showing the video in it's entirety is an issue.  I have a feeling there is some conversation in there I would really like to hear, and which is important to the situation.

Pointing out the two kids in the van on the second run through at the end made me angry.  First of all, I was looking for them in the car on the first run through (which required that I knew they were in there) and I could not spot them.  Monday morning quarterbacking our troops like that is absolutely unfair to them, as well as deceiving.  It's clear the gunner did not know they were in there.

Furthermore, there is no way to differentiate between a camera and a weapon.  I'm not sure what or how many weapons were being carried in that crowd, but I'm sure that if troops on the ground are calling in air support on a location, they feel threatened. 

I do think the van showing up should make us look long and hard at our ROE.  I don't know how often this happens, but the truth is that the Iraqi people have spent multiple decades in various wars, the majority of the male population have served in the military at some point, and as civilians they are clearly an important factor in rendering aid to other civilians.  As Bri said, I don't know the facts about the situation, but it seems to me that in general people without weapons should be left alone.  It is unfortunate that IEDs mean that those weapons are often hard to spot, but the reality is that every Iraqi or Afghan we kill turns people against us.

These reporters should not be held up as martyrs, or examples of everything wrong with the military in the Middle East.  They made a decision to hang around a location that was clearly under attack by American forces, given that the group of men seem to know about the US ground units down the street.  That decision cost them their lives, unfortunately.  Did the military make avoidable mistakes here? I'm not sure.  But certainly the cultural divide, part of which pertains to civilians and the media, is a huge part of our difficulty in fighting in the Middle East.

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

...And copy editors are your Air Force, but that is a different story.


Hey!  Just what are you insinuating there?


From a Navy officer:

"Don't think of the the AF as functioning as a military force - it's more like the DMV with some guns."

Wink
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

The full 38 minute video was also apparently released. I think its the torrent link under "download" on their site.


It is indeed. Downloading it now.


Edited by ParielIsBack - 05 April 2010 at 7:50pm
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
Linus View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - language 6.29.10

Joined: 10 November 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7908
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

I do think the van showing up should make us look long and hard at our ROE. 


Except it's known that insurgents drive up and carry off their dead and wounded after a firefight for multiple reasons.

That's why the gunner was cleared to shoot at the van... prior experience has dictated that more often then not, a vehicle rushing in to a recent firefight and helping an enemy combatant that was just wounded, probably has bad intentions itself.

The 'enemy combatant' later being found out to be a civilian is irrelevant.

Back to Top
brihard View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Making stuff up

Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 10156
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

I do think the van showing up should make us look long and hard at our ROE. 


Except it's known that insurgents drive up and carry off their dead and wounded after a firefight for multiple reasons.

That's why the gunner was cleared to shoot at the van... prior experience has dictated that more often then not, a vehicle rushing in to a recent firefight and helping an enemy combatant that was just wounded, probably has bad intentions itself.

The 'enemy combatant' later being found out to be a civilian is irrelevant.

You are simply not in a position to tell us with any degree of accuracy whether this reflects the legal realities the pilots operated under. Rules of engagement are a legal interpretation of applicable domestic and international law converted into a guide that allows formats to interpret situations and threats on the fly. For you to tell us 'this is why_______' is simply wrong, because not one of us is in a position to know. I would come closest out of current participants in the conversation, and even I don't have any degree of certainty in the matter. What I AM sure of is that shooting at unarmed individuals providing a medical response to an injured combatant who is rendered hors de combat by his wounds is typically frowned upon, but I'm giving the Americans the benefit of the (abundant) doubt.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
Back to Top
agentwhale007 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Forum's Vladimir Lenin

Joined: 20 June 2002
Location: GNV FLA
Status: Offline
Points: 11696
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

...And copy editors are your Air Force, but that is a different story.


Hey!  Just what are you insinuating there?


Just as important to the process, but not quite as . . . glorious?
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




Back to Top
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

I do think the van showing up should make us look long and hard at our ROE. 


Except it's known that insurgents drive up and carry off their dead and wounded after a firefight for multiple reasons.

That's why the gunner was cleared to shoot at the van... prior experience has dictated that more often then not, a vehicle rushing in to a recent firefight and helping an enemy combatant that was just wounded, probably has bad intentions itself.

The 'enemy combatant' later being found out to be a civilian is irrelevant.

You are simply not in a position to tell us with any degree of accuracy whether this reflects the legal realities the pilots operated under. Rules of engagement are a legal interpretation of applicable domestic and international law converted into a guide that allows formats to interpret situations and threats on the fly. For you to tell us 'this is why_______' is simply wrong, because not one of us is in a position to know. I would come closest out of current participants in the conversation, and even I don't have any degree of certainty in the matter. What I AM sure of is that shooting at unarmed individuals providing a medical response to an injured combatant who is rendered hors de combat by his wounds is typically frowned upon, but I'm giving the Americans the benefit of the (abundant) doubt.


To make a broader point:

When the Army hired social scientists to look at why so many civilians were getting shot at their checkpoints, they found that the outward palm that any American would recognize as "Stop" means "Hello" in Iraq.

This is a culture we do not understand. If we want to win the war on terror, we must take steps to meet these people where they are.  We cannot expect them to conform to our ideas.

As I said before, every person we kill incites others to rise against us.  What we need is the people on our side, and killing civilians, by accident or on purpose, prevents that from happening.
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
choopie911 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Commie Canuck

Joined: 01 June 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 30745
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 8:40pm
Understanding of the local culture is something you simply can't underestimate. Strangely enough I was writing this quote into a report I'm writing, and then read your post:

“When I stop to think about the journeys I have been making around the world for a very long time now, sometimes I feel that the most worrying problems did not involve borders and frontiers, practical difficulties and threats, so much as a frequently recurring uncertainty about the form, quality and course of an encounter with Others, with the other people whom I would come across somewhere along the way, because I knew that a lot, sometimes everything, would depend on it. Each encounter of this kind was an unknown quantity - how would it go? How would it develop? What would be the conclusion?"
-Ryszard Kapuscinski

Back to Top
brihard View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Making stuff up

Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 10156
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


This is a culture we do not understand. If we want to win the war on terror, we must take steps to meet these people where they are.  We cannot expect them to conform to our ideas.

The sheer concept of a 'war on terror' is a farcical idea to begin with, but you're right that the cultural challenges compound the difficulty.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
Back to Top
tallen702 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Swearing on Facebook

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: Under Your Bed
Status: Offline
Points: 10949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

This is a culture we do not understand. If we want to win the war on terror, we must take steps to meet these people where they are.  We cannot expect them to conform to our ideas.

The sheer concept of a 'war on terror' is a farcical idea to begin with, but you're right that the cultural challenges compound the difficulty.


I'm currently reading Arkady Babchenko's "One Soldier's War" which is his account of his involvement in both wars in Chechnya. You should read what he has to say about the Russian soldiers' contempt of the Chechen people for not using toilet paper.

That said, I think that any vehicle rolling up to the scene of a recent engagement is going to be suspect, plain and simple. It could be reinforcements, it could be someone with a stinger missile or RPG called in to take out the helicopter, it could be a suicide bomber, it could be anything, and thus seen as a threat under the situation in which the pilots were operating.
<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
Back to Top
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


This is a culture we do not understand. If we want to win the war on terror, we must take steps to meet these people where they are.  We cannot expect them to conform to our ideas.

The sheer concept of a 'war on terror' is a farcical idea to begin with, but you're right that the cultural challenges compound the difficulty.


Well, perhaps that's true.

The point is that we want the people of the Middle East to, if not be our friends, then not hop on our airliners and attempt to kill us by bombing them or crashing them.  If we ever want to be able to pull our troops out of the Middle East, we're going to have to have governments and people in power who think we are trying to do the right thing, and who are willing to suppress Islamic extremism.  That's not gonna happen if we can't show respect for the lives of civilians.
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
brihard View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Making stuff up

Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 10156
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2010 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


This is a culture we do not understand. If we want to win the war on terror, we must take steps to meet these people where they are.  We cannot expect them to conform to our ideas.

The sheer concept of a 'war on terror' is a farcical idea to begin with, but you're right that the cultural challenges compound the difficulty.


Well, perhaps that's true.

The point is that we want the people of the Middle East to, if not be our friends, then not hop on our airliners and attempt to kill us by bombing them or crashing them.  If we ever want to be able to pull our troops out of the Middle East, we're going to have to have governments and people in power who think we are trying to do the right thing, and who are willing to suppress Islamic extremism.  That's not gonna happen if we can't show respect for the lives of civilians.

I agree completely.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 7>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.172 seconds.