Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Xmas PC Upgrading

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2009 at 3:23pm
If you're buying a Macbook or Macbook Pro, I think you're not getting a bad deal.  The current generation are probably some of the best models on the market right now.

The Mini, iMac, and Mac Pro I would say are significantly less good deals.
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
agentwhale007 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Forum's Vladimir Lenin

Joined: 20 June 2002
Location: GNV FLA
Status: Offline
Points: 11698
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2009 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Macs cost too much.


It's like saying Mercedes cost to much compared to a Civic

You get what you pay for.
That's debatable.


Of course there are other factors involved in it, like what you simply need it for.

That said, going off of my own experiences, I have had my currently laptop for four years, and there has been no hardware of software problems.

Exactly two things have gone wrong. One was cosmetic - the plastic turned a funny color on the palm rests due to bad plastic, and the other was my Magsafe cord melting.

The computer itself has been nearly flawless.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




Back to Top
procarbinefreak View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Budget Medical Procedures Available

Joined: 12 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 12752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2009 at 5:26pm
i need a new one, but can't afford it.
Back to Top
pntbl freak View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Wanna do something about it? Well do ya?

Joined: 16 June 2002
Location: My Hiding Spot!
Status: Online
Points: 9194
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pntbl freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2009 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Macs cost too much.


It's like saying Mercedes cost to much compared to a Civic

You get what you pay for.
That's debatable.


Of course there are other factors involved in it, like what you simply need it for.

That said, going off of my own experiences, I have had my currently laptop for four years, and there has been no hardware of software problems.

Exactly two things have gone wrong. One was cosmetic - the plastic turned a funny color on the palm rests due to bad plastic, and the other was my Magsafe cord melting.

The computer itself has been nearly flawless.


My PC has been flawless for the 3.5 years I have owned it.  I built it when I graduated from high school and am now in the process of updating it a wee bit.


Edited by pntbl freak - 15 December 2009 at 5:37pm
Back to Top
Tolgak View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Master of MSPaint and bri's Daddy

Joined: 12 July 2002
Location: BEHIND YOU!
Status: Offline
Points: 1239481
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2009 at 5:36pm
My laptop is failing on me, so I'm tempted to go for a Macbook Pro when it dies. I don't care to have a Mac as my main computer, but laptops have always been unreliable, and we treat the ones we have quite well.

The one I'm using right now takes about 10 tries to get started. Every laptop my family has owned has died within two years. Mine has lasted longer, but I'm extra careful with it and have dealt with a plethora of issues starting at the end of its first year.
Back to Top
agentwhale007 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Forum's Vladimir Lenin

Joined: 20 June 2002
Location: GNV FLA
Status: Offline
Points: 11698
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2009 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by pntbl freak pntbl freak wrote:


My PC has been flawless for the 3.5 years I have owned it.  I built it when I graduated from high school and am now in the process of updating it a wee bit.


Desktops are a different story. I'm talking about laptops.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




Back to Top
bravecoward View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
oxymoran

Joined: 21 May 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 61637
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bravecoward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2009 at 8:07pm
HV used to be the "porn guy"
Back to Top
Ken Majors View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
Tree? What tree? OW!!!! Dangit!!!!

Joined: 02 March 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2224
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken Majors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2009 at 10:40pm
I would love to have a Macbook Pro.

My current laptop has been with the IT guy for a week.
He either sux, or I really screwed something up this time.
RLTW
Back to Top
holysmartone View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
1 strike- language in posted image 6/9

Joined: 07 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1043
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote holysmartone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2009 at 11:25pm
Ive already got a good gaming rig going, so Im opting to replace my aging speakers with a new set.

First, the rig.
Apevia Mid-tower case
Asus M3N-HD mobo
AMD Phenom 2.2ghz quad core
4gb kingston ram, pc8500 ddr2
Rosewill 750w psu
Geforce gtx280 1gb
Seagate 400gb sata drive (yeah, a little small, but its fine for now, will go bigger in near future)
Asus v222h 21.5" widescreen HD monitor.(amazing monitor for $160)
Logitech mx3200 keyboard and mouse

As for speakers, I have an old creative 5.1 set. I am getting a set of logitech z5500's. 5.1 surround, thx certified, 505watts. Along with a creative sound blaster xfi titanium fatality professional sound card. Cant wait to blow my eardrums.

As far as cpu coolers, I went with a thermaltake maxorb 120mm cooler. It keeps my cpu at about 28C idle, and never about 35C on load.
Back to Top
Darur View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Stare directly into my avatar...

Joined: 03 May 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9174
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 12:01am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


But they use the highest quality components of anything I've used or seen

No, they don't.

They use the same hardware any other desktop or laptop vendor uses.  Theres no rare select mine of DDR2 or hard drive that little Mac gnomes harvest parts from, its whatever is the cheapest to order at the time they receive the hardware.

The only reason macs CAN be more stable then Windows computers is because with a Mac you have maybe a couple hundred possible configurations of hardware, from their complete line, and all of these configurations are picked by Apple.  With a Windows PC, you're talking about literally billions and billions of possible configurations and drivers to consider.  They test as many as they can, and catch most of them, but they miss some, and when they find them they roll out updates. 

The reason your macs are more expensive then a windows based PC is just because Apple alone has the rights to sell the OS, and there is no competition between Mac vendors.

HV, as mentioned above, I wouldn't bother with a CPU cooler.  Why dump $50 on something you wont wind up really needing?

Considering picking up a Phenom II before next semester, and maybe some other upgrades, not sure though.  This 'ol 4600 AMD X2 processor is still going strong but it never was a great stepping.
Real Men play Tuba

PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf!
DONT CLICK ME!!1
Back to Top
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 12:50am
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


But they use the highest quality components of anything I've used or seen

No, they don't.


Clearly, you would know, knowing all the computers I've used.  Oh, wait...

Quote They use the same hardware any other desktop or laptop vendor uses.  Theres no rare select mine of DDR2 or hard drive that little Mac gnomes harvest parts from, its whatever is the cheapest to order at the time they receive the hardware.


The only PC makers I would buy laptops from are Asus and Lenovo.  Every time I've picked up a Toshiba, HP, or Dell, I'm amazed that people buy them.  Crappy keyboards, screens, and bodies shouldn't be selling points, even at the prices they do sell them.  Apple doesn't use "whatever is cheapest", either.  They have a select set of hardware they put in their computers, and that certainly factors into the price.

Quote The only reason macs CAN be more stable then Windows computers is because with a Mac you have maybe a couple hundred possible configurations of hardware, from their complete line, and all of these configurations are picked by Apple.  With a Windows PC, you're talking about literally billions and billions of possible configurations and drivers to consider.  They test as many as they can, and catch most of them, but they miss some, and when they find them they roll out updates.


You're joking, right?  Instability in Windows is rarely related to hardware.  The vast majority of the time it's caused by the OS itself, and it's something they've probably finally figured out in 7.  Also, the majority of Hackintoshes don't fail because of hardware instability, they fail because Apple has done a much better job preventing pirated copies from working, and one way it's done that is to lock up systems with hardware that is clearly not their's.

Quote The reason your macs are more expensive then a windows based PC is just because Apple alone has the rights to sell the OS, and there is no competition between Mac vendors.


Certainly they mark up their product, no doubt about it.  It's a luxury product, but it provides a lot of benefits that I can see some people using.  As I've said before, the fact that college students buy them even though they could get the same thing for hundreds less is probably mainly because college students are dumb, but it's also because Apple knows how to give people what they want.

Edited by ParielIsBack - 18 December 2009 at 12:59am
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
High Voltage View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Fire in the disco

Joined: 12 March 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Status: Offline
Points: 14179
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 1:18am
Originally posted by bravecoward bravecoward wrote:

HV used to be the "porn guy"

Streaming video has come such a long way.

Darur, see the cpu itself won't need a new cooler but I am considering a shiny new Zalman fan because it moves more air around in the case. It would keep the chip a little cooler but really I'm looking at one to help cool my RAM and the back of my video card.


Edited by High Voltage - 18 December 2009 at 1:24am
Back to Top
Darur View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Stare directly into my avatar...

Joined: 03 May 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9174
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 1:33am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

The only PC makers I would buy laptops from are Asus and Lenovo.  Every time I've picked up a Toshiba, HP, or Dell, I'm amazed that people buy them.  Crappy keyboards, screens, and bodies shouldn't be selling points, even at the prices they do sell them.  Apple doesn't use "whatever is cheapest", either.  They have a select set of hardware they put in their computers, and that certainly factors into the price. 

Apple uses the exact same hardware as every other vendor.  They use Intel Processors, Nvida or ATI/AMD Video cards, Whatever brands of RAM/HDD are cheapest at the moment, etc.  The only proprietary hardware on an Apple computer is the motherboard, which is has a few proprietary parts to allow OS X to be installed.  Thats it.  I'll give you that they may have pretty screens, but I don't generally consider the screen in terms of performance.  Bodies, keyboards and mice are peripherals and aesthetics, they do not make your computer run faster.  Yes, the hardware they use conforms to the product spec.  They don't just drop in ATI and Nvidia cards when one is cheaper then the other. But if its a choice between Corsair XMS ram or Kingston generic, both of which perform the exact same for those conditions, you bet they'll use the cheaper RAM, just like every other vendor.  The same is true of hard drives and other parts.

Quote
 Instability in Windows is rarely related to hardware.  The vast majority of the time it's caused by the OS itself, and it's something they've probably finally figured out in 7.  Also, the majority of Hackintoshes don't fail because of hardware instability, they fail because Apple has done a much better job preventing pirated copies from working, and one way it's done that is to lock up systems with hardware that is clearly not their's.

Operating systems use specific driver sets for specific types of hardware.  Sometimes drivers conflict with each other, sometimes they aren't fully optimized.  These are hardware-software interface issues. They are not indicative of the quality of the OS, but rather of the sheer magnitude of possible hardware configurations around. If Apple licensed their OS like Microsoft, they would have similar issues.

I don't know what you are trying to say with the Hackintosh point.  They fail because OS X requires certain motherboard elements that aren't present, because those parts are proprietary.  hackintoshes try to get around that by emulating those parts.



Edited by Darur - 18 December 2009 at 1:34am
Real Men play Tuba

PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf!
DONT CLICK ME!!1
Back to Top
Darur View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Stare directly into my avatar...

Joined: 03 May 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9174
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 1:35am
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:



Darur, see the cpu itself won't need a new cooler but I am considering a shiny new Zalman fan because it moves more air around in the case. It would keep the chip a little cooler but really I'm looking at one to help cool my RAM and the back of my video card.


Oooh

Why not just chop a hole in the case and stick in a yate loon?


Edited by Darur - 18 December 2009 at 1:35am
Real Men play Tuba

PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf!
DONT CLICK ME!!1
Back to Top
High Voltage View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Fire in the disco

Joined: 12 March 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Status: Offline
Points: 14179
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 1:36am
I would love to hear RFU's take on this debate.
Back to Top
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 11:19am
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Apple uses the exact same hardware as every other vendor.  They use Intel Processors, Nvida or ATI/AMD Video cards, Whatever brands of RAM/HDD are cheapest at the moment, etc.  The only proprietary hardware on an Apple computer is the motherboard, which is has a few proprietary parts to allow OS X to be installed.  Thats it.  I'll give you that they may have pretty screens, but I don't generally consider the screen in terms of performance.  Bodies, keyboards and mice are peripherals and aesthetics, they do not make your computer run faster.  Yes, the hardware they use conforms to the product spec.  They don't just drop in ATI and Nvidia cards when one is cheaper then the other. But if its a choice between Corsair XMS ram or Kingston generic, both of which perform the exact same for those conditions, you bet they'll use the cheaper RAM, just like every other vendor.  The same is true of hard drives and other parts.


So the other parts don't matter because you don't want them to matter?  Is that your argument?  Bodies, keyboards, and mice are part of what sell Macs.

I'm not claiming that they're using proprietary hardware, I'm claiming that they don't use whatever crap Seagate is sticking in their hard drives.

Quote Operating systems use specific driver sets for specific types of hardware.  Sometimes drivers conflict with each other, sometimes they aren't fully optimized.  These are hardware-software interface issues. They are not indicative of the quality of the OS, but rather of the sheer magnitude of possible hardware configurations around. If Apple licensed their OS like Microsoft, they would have similar issues.


Right, but Apple doesn't make that claim, and that's part of the reason they sell computers.  And again, driver issues are not a driving point here.  Vista and other OS's produced by Microsoft simply haven't been stable, which is obviously a problem.  Apple, on the other hand, hasn't done that, at least in the recent past.

Quote I don't know what you are trying to say with the Hackintosh point.  They fail because OS X requires certain motherboard elements that aren't present, because those parts are proprietary.  hackintoshes try to get around that by emulating those parts.


My point is, if your point was going to be that OS X doesn't work on all hardware, it's because it was designed that way.  Whereas, for quite a while, Windows often did not work with hardware that was designed for it and even certified by the company (see: Vista and video cards).
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
Darur View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Stare directly into my avatar...

Joined: 03 May 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9174
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 1:44pm
I never said OS X doesn't work on all hardware.  I said OS X is designed for a small subset of hardware configurations compared to Windows.  Apple still controls the hardware that goes into its computers.  You can't build an Apple computer on Newegg for instance.  

I really don't think your grasping the significance of this.  Operating Systems serve as an abstraction layer between software and hardware.   I would love to expand on this but I have 2 finals in an hour so I'll return to this then.

Peripherals are not what people are talking about when they talk about performance.  Your computer does not run faster with a sleeker body, or a more tactile keyboard, so no, those points do not matter in the context of performance (which is by and large the point of this thread).  They do matter for looks and they do matter for comfort, but thats it.

Quote
I'm claiming that they don't use whatever crap Seagate is sticking in their hard drives.

What does that even mean?

The problem with Vista was not because it was poorly built, but because it was overbuilt.  It was designed for computers that couldn't handle it yet.  The cases of Vista computers not being able to handle the OS when they said they were designed for it was a marketing failure, not a software failure.  The PC companies demanded Microsoft say they supported computers that couldn't quite handle Vista, because the PC retailers needed to move stock.  Vista is a fine OS, I have no problems with it, but like I said it was designed for computers being released today instead of computers being released 3 years ago.
Real Men play Tuba

PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf!
DONT CLICK ME!!1
Back to Top
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 5:19pm
Quick question: do you actually use a computer?

You can build a Hackintosh on Newegg.  I suggest you go look up what parts are compatible first, because mainly the list of motherboards is a short one.  And don't expect to run the newest version of OS X (I don't anyway, so it wouldn't really be a problem).

Vista was, is, and forever will be a crappy OS.  Just because it can actually run reasonably on faster computers does not mean that it's all of a sudden "better", or even decent.

Microsoft is the one who certifies what hardware can run their OS'es.  If they want to make bad decisions, that's a horrendous marketing scheme for them, because as Vista showed, people will talk about it.

I fully understand how OS'es work, thanks. 

My point is that you're looking at Mac and saying "Oh, that's just an overpriced PC".   It's not.  It caters to different people, who care about things like peripherals, simple customer support, and essentially seamless computing.  That's the reason Apple is making so much money -- not because they somehow convinced people to buy overpriced PCs.  You should talk to Dell, Alienware, and a host of other idiotic PC manufacturers for that one.
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
Darur View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Stare directly into my avatar...

Joined: 03 May 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9174
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 8:05pm
Pariell, I would suggest you pull that stick out of your ass and chill out.

Firstly, a Hackintosh is not an Apple computer.  When I say Apple computer, I am referring to a computer purchased from Apple or specifically designed to run OS X.  The former is any Macbook or Mac which Apple produces.  The latter doesn't exist because Apple never licensed out the OS, and the OS requires specific proprietary parts on the motherboard to allow you to run and install OS X.  This is a measure to keep vendors from selling computers which run OS X but are not sold by Apple.

A Hackintosh is just a PC which runs OS X. You cannot buy an Apple Computer from, ultimately, anywhere but Apple.  You can buy them from resellers or retailers, sure, but Apple is ultimately where you are buying the computer from.  

You can build a Hackintosh on Newegg, that is true, but as I pointed out before, it is not an Apple computer.  Thus Apple effectively is the only provider of OS X and computers that run it in a Monopolistic Competitive Market. 

Quote
You can build a Hackintosh on Newegg.  I suggest you go look up what parts are compatible first, because mainly the list of motherboards is a short one.  And don't expect to run the newest version of OS X (I don't anyway, so it wouldn't really be a problem).

Its interesting that you bring this point up. A large reason Hackintoshes don't often run stable or have problems is because, as I said before, Apple has set up hardware-based protection on the motherboard that requires specific proprietary parts to run the OS.  That doesn't account for all of the instability issues though, or why only specific parts seem to work well with Hackintoshes.  The reason you can't plug in any old video card isn't because you're building it with icky PC parts (same parts in a PC as a in a Mac), but because Apple never supported that card to begin with.  The OS has stability issues with parts Apple didn't intend for it to use.  Which is what I've been saying this entire time.  OS X is a fine OS, and its well built, based on the Unix kernel, and it is very stable, but ONLY with the hardware it's meant to run.

If Windows was sold the same way as OS X, Windows would be just as stable, and frankly, since XP Windows has been very stable.

Vista is not a crappy OS.  Everyone and their mother says its a crappy OS because everyone and their mother was told it is a crappy OS.  It just is designed for hardware which is only really becoming common-place today.  Yes, it had a rough introduction to the market.  Manufacturers were trying to cram it onto cheap laptops that could handle XP just barely, and that didn't work.  I agree that Microsoft should never have succumbed to the manufactures demands for relaxed system requirements, but that only speaks ill of their marketing department. 

Apple is just offering an alternative OS to other users.  Apple computers are not "better" then PCs, they do not have "better" OSes, they just run differently.  I agree that I probably would recommend a Mac to a basic computer user over a PC, simply because theres less you can screw up.  I prefer to pay less for a computer which is just as fast, if not faster, and gives me more freedom with what I can in terms of hardware and software.  
Real Men play Tuba

PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf!
DONT CLICK ME!!1
Back to Top
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2009 at 9:09pm
Stick staying in my ass.

You've basically pulled out every uninformed hard core PC-user reason for not buying a Mac, and ignored my point entirely.

And that's coming from someone who uses Windows 90% of the time.
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.250 seconds.