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I'm 21 (ITT: Guns)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

My friend, lives in the city with 4 foot alleys between houses, wanted to use a Springfield 1903 for home defense.  Talk about over penetraiton

Giggity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sporx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 8:07pm
well.... I turned 21 yesterday. Happy Birthday to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 9:21pm
^w00t!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 9:44pm
Since no one reads the last post on previous pages, I'll restate what I said. I think it applies.

Originally posted by myself myself wrote:

I buy guns (this may be my first handgun, but far from my first gun) as a hobby primarily. I see shooting much like I see archery. I enjoy competing against my friends and getting better.

But I also purchased this handgun with the idea of protection. I do intend on acquiring my CHL, and I'd like to carry. It's just another tool.

As for America's gun policy, I don't know. I feel because people that can hurt me and my family have easy access to weapons, I probably should as well. What does that mean? It means that if weapons were extremely controlled, both legal and not, I wouldn't feel the necessity to arm. As a firearm enthusiast, I wouldn't like that, but it's the way it is. But guns and weaponry have become so ingrained into America, for better or worse, that it is more beneficial for me to own and be trained in using firearms than it would be if I didn't. In places like Canada and the UK, where guns are extremely controlled, the necessity to arm just isn't there. However, I live in America, and, as sad as it may be, I feel it is a necessity. I figured I'd act on it while that necessity is still a right. It's just a difference of culture. It's how we are, and that's not going to change for a long while.

That being said, there are situations where having a gun just makes things worse. It's up to me to decide when and where to use it, if it ever should come to that. I believe I'm responsible enough to judge properly. Especially after CHL classes.






Edited by DeTrevni - 11 December 2009 at 9:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by sporx sporx wrote:

well.... I turned 21 yesterday. Happy Birthday to me.


Did you get besotted, buzzed, drunk as a skunk, drunken, half-seas over, in one's cups, inebriated, intoxicated, loaded, pickled, plastered, polluted, s***-faced, sloshed, smashed, soused, tanked, three sheets to the wind, tipsy, trashed, wasted...?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 1:28am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by sporx sporx wrote:

well.... I turned 21 yesterday. Happy Birthday to me.


Did you get besotted, buzzed, drunk as a skunk, drunken, half-seas over, in one's cups, inebriated, intoxicated, loaded, pickled, plastered, polluted, s***-faced, sloshed, smashed, soused, tanked, three sheets to the wind, tipsy, trashed, wasted...?
Fail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frozen Balls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 2:20am
Also when the Commies invade, we can fight back.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 4:14am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


Perhaps you should be more concise.Also, you didn't answer his question, you wrote on essay on gun ownership.  There's a difference.


Actually I wrote an essay on self defence.

And I don't see where I drifted away from the question.

Quote FrogMan

Do you buy hand guns as a sport/hobby to take to the range? or do you buy them for protection?

Answered that one. I also expanded on what a gun owning hobby actually is.

Quote
If you buy it for the range, what makes a gun good? Consistency? accuracy? But then why would it matter if the gun was light or small?

I didn't answer this one, I did say you had to choose one you liked and one that felt right. And why MY sport requires light/small guns.

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Do you feel guns are a good idea to carry for protection?

Definately answered this one. I think it is a good idea. I expanded on that by explaining why I think it is a good idea, and why I think it is only part of an idea. There are legal and practical restrictions on using a firearm for self defence, and it shouldn't be the only egg in your basket. I explained why it isn't "owning a firearm" that makes one self defense concious. This needed a little bit of explanation, because it IS a difficult / loaded question.

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I am sure everyone has different opinions, but I seriously dont have a clue,

Speaking to someone who has said they "dont have a clue" you need to draw big pictures, as well as fill in some detail.

Using this as a basis I did also explain some of the very basic wrong arguments that anti's throw up, which happened one page after I gave him the headsup.

In my opinion it was an essay question.

Seriously, it's a forum. Expect people to write more than "+1" or "lol" on occasion. If you don't like it, hit PgDn. Not that hard. He asked a serious question and got a serious answer. Infact he asked about 10 questions.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 4:45am
Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

For home defense, I I think it makes sense that there is nothing better than a shotgun. For CCW, obviously, a pistol makes the most sense. What I can't wrap my mind around is the "necessity" people see in having ARs. The only practical reason to have them is to kill people as efficiently as possible;


But that is honestly the reason for any self defence weapon. It is to remove the threat as quickly and as fast as possible.

Using a firearm is using lethal force. If it has come down to that, you better be using something that will kill as efficiently as possible.

There are plenty of options better than a shotgun for home defence, one of them is an AR. It all depends on how you plan on protecting your house, and where your house is, and what your house is made of. And about a thousand other considerations.

Personally I like the idea of an AR for home defence. Even though I am damn good with a shotgun, my preference would be for an AR.

Remember my criteria are slightly different from most of the 'States and the houses we live in are all brick construction. Not much drywall around. .223 rounds that hit brick tend to say hit. Aside from that there are other considerations.

"Shotguns are eady to use". BS. Obviosuly espoused by people who have no idea. Running a shotgun takes way more skill than running a semi auto rifle. Using a shotgun under stress is very very hard, and it is very easy to short stoke a shotgun and jam it. Shotguns that jam are very hard to clear. To get an AR to function reliably, all you need to do is pull the trigger. There is no further user interaction required. Shotguns require fine motor coordination. Not something people do well under stress. Tap Rack Bang drills are easier on an AR than a shotgun.

"Shotguns are point and click". BS. They require aiming just as much as any other weapon. The simple sight arrangement on shotguns fools people into thinking they are area weapons, and they aren't. A consistent cheekweld is even more important on a shotgun than a rifle because that's how you make sure the front bead is going to be accurate. At most indoor type of ranges, the shot won't spread much, if any. And if it DOES, this increases the chances of accidental shootings. I want the rounds I shoot to hit exactly where I want them to. Not to spread.

"The sound of a shotgun racking will stop an intruder dead"/"shotguns are intimidating". BS BS BS. While a shotgun racking MIGHT stop an intruder, it's the 2 rounds to center mass that'll stop them dead. If you have your shotgun at hand you obviously think your life is in danger. Do you want to risk that by having a gun with no bullets in the chamber? Are you only going to rack the weapon when someone is close to you? If you have your gun out, you shouldn't be trying to intimidate people. Guns come into play when it is life or death.

Shotguns are also very very loud. Especially indoors. Your hearing is something that you'll need in a self defence situation. Getting a shorty AR with a supressor will make shooting indoors much more survivable. Being able to hear the cops when they arrive and start issuing commands is a GOOD thing.

Another often espoused theory is shotguns are shorter and easier to handle. This is again, bovine excretement.

While you can shorten a shotgun to any length you want (up to 18 inches legally) IIRC, this sacrifices capacity. If I shorten an AR's barrel, I still have 30 rounds in the mag.


This is a picture of a shorty shotgun with an 18 in barrel, and 5+1 IIRC. The M16 is an original style AR-15, with a 20 round mag and a 20" barrel. The AK is an 1952 AK-47 with 30 rounds of 7.62x39mm.

As for shooting people being the only reason to own AR's, I disagree. I use AR's all the time for 3 gun shoots. They include shotguns, rifles and handguns. And are great great fun.

I also partake in shooting competitions that are for military issue weapons. Not fancy bench rest rifles. For this you need an AR.

While AR's won't do much against air support and artillery, you still need to send troops in on the ground to occupy territory....

KBK



Edited by Kayback - 12 December 2009 at 4:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 5:10am
^^^ The thing is, suppressors are illegal in America, so if we pull off a shot our hearing is gone regardless of what we shoot.

Edited by DeTrevni - 12 December 2009 at 5:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveEllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 8:34am
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

^^^ The thing is, suppressors are illegal in America, so if we pull off a shot our hearing is gone regardless of what we shoot.


Suppressors are legal if you are willing to get your tax stamp and pay for it.  Its state by state
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 9:32am
Suppressors also make the weapon longer, you probably won't want one on your CCW, and they don't work on shotguns.

So, you're screwed either way, legal or not.  I believe there are only a handful of states that don't allow suppressors.  I know Michigan doesn't, and I'd bet NJ and CA, and possibly MA don't.  Other than that, I would bet they're legal, in general.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 11:04am
montana law states suppressors are legal with no tax stamp as long as they are made and stay in montana... i dont want to but heads with the ATF over this one but thats what they say...

an 11.5" or 12.5" ar upper with a suppressor should be ~ 16" OAL for the barrel+ suppressor, same length as the 16" required for a non SB rifle and still 2" shorter than the 18" required for a non SB shotgun...

how do you like the A1 kbk? have any problems with the lack of fwd assist?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by merc merc wrote:

montana law states suppressors are legal with no tax stamp as long as they are made and stay in montana... i dont want to but heads with the ATF over this one but thats what they say...


The ATF's stance on the issue is currently being challenged by Montana in court.

The governor himself specifically told Montana residents not to attempt to take advantage of the law until the case has been decided, so it's not all that helpful right now.

Also, I don't imagine there are many manufacturers of firearms or their components in Montana (and any gun covered by the law must be fully manufactured in Montana, not just shipped their and assembled or some such).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 2:51pm
actually there are a few gun manufacturers in montana (custom rifles for high altitude big game stuff)

while there arnt many firearm manufacturers in montana, it helps the private citizen that wants to manufacture their own... (not hard at all)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

^^^ The thing is, suppressors are illegal in America, so if we pull off a shot our hearing is gone regardless of what we shoot.

Your hearing will be affected, but it probably won't be gone. Yeah, you'll be ringing for a while, but it's likely that your hearing will not be completely affected by the shot.

What's far more likely is for someone in a lethal force situation to experience auditory exclusion- that is, their sympathetic nervous system is so keyed up that it induces odd psychological effects to eliminate any irrelevant stimulus to the immediate survival situation. Hearing normally comes back quickly once the lethal force situation is resolved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by merc merc wrote:

actually there are a few gun manufacturers in montana (custom rifles for high altitude big game stuff)

while there arnt many firearm manufacturers in montana, it helps the private citizen that wants to manufacture their own... (not hard at all)


So basically, if you're one of the less than 1 million people living in Montana (given that you live in the US, there's a 0.3% chance or so of that being the case), and you want to manufacture your own firearms, and this law is declared valid, you're good to go.

So we're talking about...you, on this forum? Maybe a couple thousand people in the entire nation (well, state, I guess)?

My point is, in reality this law has little to no effect, except that it would set a precedent for other states.  Which would allow places like NJ to clamp down even harder on guns.  Which would be bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 3:05pm
Bri: That was hyperbole. I know it's not going to be truly "gone," but it's gonna be loud for sure.

And I know about the tax stamp. You require the same thing to legally use a paintball silencer. But who really wants to pay $200 for that? And you aren't even guaranteed the license.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sporx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:


Originally posted by sporx sporx wrote:

well.... I turned 21 yesterday. Happy Birthday to me.
Did you get besotted, buzzed, drunk as a skunk, drunken, half-seas over, in one's cups, inebriated, intoxicated, loaded, pickled,
plastered, polluted, s***-faced, sloshed, smashed, soused, tanked,
three sheets to the wind, tipsy, trashed, wasted...?

nope. i had 28 shots and a class of wine. walked off and watched DBZ at my house.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2009 at 4:05pm
GT is superior.
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